Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

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Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

cl
I'm looking for an application (or *simple* development framework)
which will provide me with an easily accessible grid form for entering
data into a table.

Requirements:-
    This can be a web app or a [Linux] desktop one though I have a
    slight preference for a web app.

    Must be able to launch straight into the grid, no navigation
    through menus etc.  This rules out OpenOffice/LibreOffice really.
    I want to be able to say:-
        gridform <database> <table>
    or the equivalent in a link.  A 'SELECT' in addition would be fine
    just as long as it can all be done in one go when launched (or
    linked to).

    I want a 'clean' form, just the form, no menus or other clutter
    (similarly rules out OpenOffice/LibreOffice).

    Simple 'in form' data editing, just click on a field and change
    its data, on exiting the field the data is saved.  No pop-up boxes
    for data entry, no 'Save' buttons.

    Add rows at the bottom either by TABbing off the last field or
    possibly have a blank row at the bottom (like MS Access).

That's it really, I've no need for the ability to add columns, modify
the database or anything like that (it will be done elsewhere).  I'm
happy to do some programming, I'm resonably proficient in PHP and
Python (and C/C++ for that matter but I don't think I want to go
there).  I don't really want to have to install a whole web (or other)
development framework just to do this though so I probably want
something that's specifically aimed at databases if I'm going to
program it.



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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

R Smith

On 2014/06/03 16:07, [hidden email] wrote:

> I'm looking for an application (or *simple* development framework)
> which will provide me with an easily accessible grid form for entering
> data into a table.
>
> Requirements:-
>      This can be a web app or a [Linux] desktop one though I have a
>      slight preference for a web app.
>
>      Must be able to launch straight into the grid, no navigation
>      through menus etc.  This rules out OpenOffice/LibreOffice really.
>      I want to be able to say:-
>          gridform <database> <table>
>      or the equivalent in a link.  A 'SELECT' in addition would be fine
>      just as long as it can all be done in one go when launched (or
>      linked to).
>
>      I want a 'clean' form, just the form, no menus or other clutter
>      (similarly rules out OpenOffice/LibreOffice).
>
>      Simple 'in form' data editing, just click on a field and change
>      its data, on exiting the field the data is saved.  No pop-up boxes
>      for data entry, no 'Save' buttons.
>
>      Add rows at the bottom either by TABbing off the last field or
>      possibly have a blank row at the bottom (like MS Access).
>
> That's it really, I've no need for the ability to add columns, modify
> the database or anything like that (it will be done elsewhere).  I'm
> happy to do some programming, I'm resonably proficient in PHP and
> Python (and C/C++ for that matter but I don't think I want to go
> there).  I don't really want to have to install a whole web (or other)
> development framework just to do this though so I probably want
> something that's specifically aimed at databases if I'm going to
> program it.
>

Your requirement is unrealistic.

You do not want to install anything that makes this happen for you, yet you want very complex abilities.

Usually, presenting a very "clean" interface to a user requiring no other interface goodies means that you need to do a lot of the
thinking for them - user simplicity means programming complicatedness, and programming simple things means the user ends up with
complicated GUI methods. Which do you want, simple to make, or simple to use? They are mutually exclusive.

I have done this a few times, using mostly flash (which I can send you demo log-ins for if interested) and in HTML5+PHP with a few
tricks you should be able to achieve similar if you are very familiar with web/html/php development. (I say PHP but it's doable in
ASP.Net etc. too if needed). I do not know if installing a web server or PEAR/PHP/ASP etc. services violates your "Don't want to
install stuff" requirement. Also, you cannot just load say 7 million edit fields into an HTML file... it will fail miserably.. so
you will need to use data windowing (simplicity--).

May I suggest plagiarising the open source MySQL viewer engine called phpMyAdmin, they have awesome generic table editors that
interfaces a MySQL DB on a web server based off PHP. Just install it onto your local system, all the PHP files which achieve the
fields editing will be in one folder. It will take some work still.

A desktop App will be easy too, but only usable on whatever platform it is made. Web apps can work anywhere.


Not sure if this answers the question or raises more questions, either way I hope it helps a bit.


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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

cl
RSmith <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2014/06/03 16:07, [hidden email] wrote:
> > I'm looking for an application (or *simple* development framework)
> > which will provide me with an easily accessible grid form for entering
> > data into a table.
> >
> > Requirements:-
> >      This can be a web app or a [Linux] desktop one though I have a
> >      slight preference for a web app.
> >
> >      Must be able to launch straight into the grid, no navigation
> >      through menus etc.  This rules out OpenOffice/LibreOffice really.
> >      I want to be able to say:-
> >          gridform <database> <table>
> >      or the equivalent in a link.  A 'SELECT' in addition would be fine
> >      just as long as it can all be done in one go when launched (or
> >      linked to).
> >
> >      I want a 'clean' form, just the form, no menus or other clutter
> >      (similarly rules out OpenOffice/LibreOffice).
> >
> >      Simple 'in form' data editing, just click on a field and change
> >      its data, on exiting the field the data is saved.  No pop-up boxes
> >      for data entry, no 'Save' buttons.
> >
> >      Add rows at the bottom either by TABbing off the last field or
> >      possibly have a blank row at the bottom (like MS Access).
> >
> > That's it really, I've no need for the ability to add columns, modify
> > the database or anything like that (it will be done elsewhere).  I'm
> > happy to do some programming, I'm resonably proficient in PHP and
> > Python (and C/C++ for that matter but I don't think I want to go
> > there).  I don't really want to have to install a whole web (or other)
> > development framework just to do this though so I probably want
> > something that's specifically aimed at databases if I'm going to
> > program it.
> >
>
> Your requirement is unrealistic.
>
> You do not want to install anything that makes this happen for you, yet
> you want very complex abilities.
>
MS Access provides *exactly* what I want 'out of the box' a
grid view of the database table that is editable in place.  What I see
as 'complex' is all the database adminstration bits that I
specifically don't want.

OK, I know Access is a huge application but the grid editing form is
the *default* way to edit data.


> Usually, presenting a very "clean" interface to a user requiring no other
> interface goodies means that you need to do a lot of the
> thinking for them - user simplicity means programming complicatedness,

Er no, I'm just asking for no other function than the ability to enter
and edit data.  What I want to be rid of is all of the ability that
most applications provide for creating tables, creating and editing
queries, changing tables, etc. etc.


> and programming simple things means the user ends up with
> complicated GUI methods. Which do you want, simple to make, or simple to
> use? They are mutually exclusive.
>
> I have done this a few times, using mostly flash (which I can send you
> demo log-ins for if interested) and in HTML5+PHP with a few
> tricks you should be able to achieve similar if you are very familiar with
> web/html/php development. (I say PHP but it's doable in
> ASP.Net etc. too if needed). I do not know if installing a web server or
> PEAR/PHP/ASP etc. services violates your "Don't want to
> install stuff" requirement. Also, you cannot just load say 7 million edit
> fields into an HTML file... it will fail miserably.. so
> you will need to use data windowing (simplicity--).
>
I already have a 'LAMP' system, i.e. a web server (with several apps
running on it), database, PHP, etc.  I don't mind installing things
but I don't want to have to 're-invent the wheel'.


> May I suggest plagiarising the open source MySQL viewer engine called phpMyAdmin,
> they have awesome generic table editors that

I have phpmyadmin and use it a lot but it's *MILES* away from what I
want.  This is what I've been trying to explain, firstly I want none
of the database administration stuff, secondly I want it to be easy to
edit the data, in phpmyadmin editing data is clumsy.


> interfaces a MySQL DB on a web server based off PHP. Just install it onto
> your local system, all the PHP files which achieve the
> fields editing will be in one folder. It will take some work still.
>
> A desktop App will be easy too, but only usable on whatever platform it
> is made. Web apps can work anywhere.
>
Both places where I want to run this are Linux boxes so a desktop
application would be fine, however I have yet to see a desktop API
that makes it easy to do this.

--
Chris Green
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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

Kevin Martin
In reply to this post by cl

On 3 Jun 2014, at 15:07, [hidden email] wrote:

> I'm looking for an application (or *simple* development framework)
> which will provide me with an easily accessible grid form for entering
> data into a table.

I don't know anything about coding a web program, so all this advice related purely to a desktop application

It's possibly not what you're looking for, as it's a console application, but I think the spreadsheet calculator, sc, satisfies most of your requirements. The file format is very simple, so the plumbing to get data out of the table and back in should be fairly simple. If you need a quick solution that's _ok_ then I'd consider it. If you want a nice solution, then it will take the time to code something as someone else already pointed out.

If you are competent with Gtk, someone has kindly created a spreadsheet like widget called GtkSheet, embedding this in your won Gtk application shouldn't be too difficult.

Thanks,
Kev
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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

J Decker
You didn't list C#(mono,silverlight(uhmm not sure what mono called it) for
web) in your repitroire; but a DataGridView filled from a DataAdapter is a
few lines of code to get a editable table view.
A few more lines and you get auto updating; cells are format protected
(prevent entering text as a number)...
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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

R Smith
In reply to this post by cl

On 2014/06/03 18:40, [hidden email] wrote:

> RSmith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Your requirement is unrealistic. You do not want to install anything that makes this happen for you, yet you want very complex
>> abilities.
> MS Access provides *exactly* what I want 'out of the box' a
> grid view of the database table that is editable in place.  What I see
> as 'complex' is all the database adminstration bits that I
> specifically don't want.
>
> OK, I know Access is a huge application but the grid editing form is
> the *default* way to edit data.

Yes but the bit you seem to not account for is that MS Access is a *Huge* app with a couple million lines of code underneath all
that "easy to use" and "default" gridview that edits data. The fact that it is all transparent to you does not make it any less
heavy. Moreover, if you are happy to install an MS-Access type App then there should be no problem, but you asked for something that
does not need any installs. This is like saying "I would like to fly to France, but please, no aeroplanes" and when I say "well
that's not realistic", you retort with "but it's so easy in a Boeing..." - to which I have to reply "Yeah I know, because it is an
aeroplane and that is what aeroplanes do..." - you can't have it both ways.


>
>> Usually, presenting a very "clean" interface to a user requiring no other
>> interface goodies means that you need to do a lot of the
>> thinking for them - user simplicity means programming complicatedness,
> Er no, I'm just asking for no other function than the ability to enter
> and edit data.  What I want to be rid of is all of the ability that
> most applications provide for creating tables, creating and editing
> queries, changing tables, etc. etc.

Again, the "ability to enter and edit data" pre-supposes a lot of user interfacing and Insert and update queries, How do we know
which row the user is editing, does the query provide the key. Is the user's input violating a subrange bound or maybe a check
constraint or a data type constraint or possibly even a foreign key or Index uniqueness constraint? Is this new value an update or a
new row, if it is an update, do we have a unique reference to the row or not, do we have a primary key, is the primary key editable
or do we hide it?  Do we update after every value cell that was edited, if so we lose the ability to "undo" changes, is that ok? or
do we update the entire row after it is edited, if so we need some kind of button/event on which to do it - does this add unwanted
complexity? All this happens nicely for you in the back of an MS Access app (or any of the myriad DB editors out there) but they all
are rather hefty and the LAMP system is a great example of how clunky it can get to do all of the above in a web app. Of course if
your requirements can safely disregard all the above it could be very streamlined and easy to use, but we have to understand what
abilities we lose in the process.


>
>
> I already have a 'LAMP' system, i.e. a web server (with several apps
> running on it), database, PHP, etc.  I don't mind installing things
> but I don't want to have to 're-invent the wheel'.

I understand, but you are either re-inventing the wheel, or using an existing wheel. One takes time, the other requires an install,
there is no middle road.



> Both places where I want to run this are Linux boxes so a desktop application would be fine, however I have yet to see a desktop
> API that makes it easy to do this.

I agree, but for reasons mentioned above, it isn't easy and anyone who usually starts out making an easy editor ends up making a
complex one. By that I mean that there are a myriad SQL editors out there, many for linux desktops too, but each of them will allow
you all kinds of editing and design function, lots more than you you want.

A very simple to use interface can be programmed with C# maybe which I am sure would have pre-made data grids. The dev system I use
for Linux which definitely has all the bells and whistles and you can probably hack together the exact thing you mention in about 30
minutes is called Lazarus which is a kind of "Delphi for Linux" type thing which support most DBs natively (or easily addable) with
grids and data connections/adaptors, but if I were you would go for a dev system I know well. Is there one you know well? A simple
Google on it might find us some DB Grid type controls already made by someone (probably for use in some clever DB manager, but which
you can re-appropriate in a more simplistic app).  Kevin's Gtk suggestion sounds like a plan that can be both relatively easy to
implement /and/ easy to use, if you are familiar with that dev system and the intended users are not complete ignoramii.


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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

Stephen Chrzanowski
By the sounds of it, the OP wants a spreadsheet app, that isn't a
spreadsheet app, acts like a database, but isn't quite a database, looks
simple to use, but provide editable information in a reasonable format.

To bring up a point about Google that RSmith brought up, Google Docs has a
spreadsheet app that has zero install, accessible by many (If you want) and
available from anywhere provided an internet connection is available, and
allows you to edit, search, sort, filter, and all the other bells and
whistles other spreadsheet and database applications have.  Mind you
linking an external data requester application might be a bit of a PITA (If
that is a requirement) might start throwing additional complexities into
the mix.

Since the LAMP setup is available, there are other spreadsheet type
applications that allow you to move from Google Docs to in-house.  Off the
top of my head I can't think of the names I've used in the past (I write
databases, not spreadsheets) but they are out there, free for all, just
short of public domain (MIT maybe?), and in a
'download-extract-run-configure' format usually, which is GREAT with a LAMP
setup.

The other option is to go ground up with PHP and some very basic AJAX
calls, but even then, you'd need SOME kind of management.  How many rows to
display, how many columns to display, do we add rows, remove rows, what
field is what cast, validation requirements, data storage considerations,
data VOLUME considerations, who accesses the data, what is read only and
who/what can write to the table, are we talking one database, one table,
one user, or, many databases, many tables, many users, does encryption come
into play and if so at what level?  Some kind of management HAS to happen,
like it or not.  And if basic management comes into play, you might as well
stick with something that already exists (Google Docs, OpenOffice,
LibreOffice, Excel, Notepad).

From a mile high view, O.P., from a ground up build of an application
perspective, what you're requesting LOOKS simple, but there are a TONNE of
things to take into consideration that must happen in the back end.  Even
with forgetting about security, validation, and accessibility.  That stuff
just icing on the cake.

Take this example;

5x5 text field form.  That is 25 fields.  Each field has to have a unique
identifier.  Using the Spreadsheet format, A1:E5 is the range of cells.

Things to consider
- Is this a field to be calculated?
- Is this actually a number?
- Does the cell reference something else?

Code has to be written for that.

Two months later, you realize that 25 cells is just not enough info.  So
now we're looking at more rows, more columns, more data.  Is this going to
require a database rewrite?  Cells need to rely and reference other cells?
Forget the back end, how do we draw the UI?  Now we're throwing tabs into
the mix?  So now I have to deal with something in the range of AA1:RZ10?
How am I going to get a web page to throw 4420 cells on the screen AND make
it somewhat serviceable? (26*10*17=4420)

Two months later, you want to give read only access to someone else to view
your 4420 cells.  User authentication has to come into play.  oAuth, or
simple user/password?  We talking encryption at authentication, or for
authentication AND showing the UI?


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:48 PM, RSmith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A very simple to use interface can be programmed with C# maybe which I am
> sure would have pre-made data grids. The dev system I use for Linux which
> definitely has all the bells and whistles and you can probably hack
> together the exact thing you mention in about 30 minutes is called Lazarus
> which is a kind of "Delphi for Linux" type thing which support most DBs
> natively (or easily addable) with grids and data connections/adaptors, but
> if I were you would go for a dev system I know well. Is there one you know
> well? A simple Google on it might find us some DB Grid type controls
> already made by someone (probably for use in some clever DB manager, but
> which you can re-appropriate in a more simplistic app).  Kevin's Gtk
> suggestion sounds like a plan that can be both relatively easy to implement
> /and/ easy to use, if you are familiar with that dev system and the
> intended users are not complete ignoramii.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

cl
Stephen Chrzanowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> By the sounds of it, the OP wants a spreadsheet app, that isn't a
> spreadsheet app, acts like a database, but isn't quite a database, looks
> simple to use, but provide editable information in a reasonable format.
>
You're almost right.  Many people use spreadsheets for the sort of
data entry task that I'm trying to do but really spreadsheets aren't
optimum for the job.  

Yes, I basically want a spreadsheet data entry screen with a database
behind it.  However the *detail* of how spreadsheets work for data
entry isn't really ideal.


> To bring up a point about Google that RSmith brought up, Google Docs has a
> spreadsheet app that has zero install, accessible by many (If you want) and
> available from anywhere provided an internet connection is available, and
> allows you to edit, search, sort, filter, and all the other bells and
> whistles other spreadsheet and database applications have.  Mind you
> linking an external data requester application might be a bit of a PITA (If
> that is a requirement) might start throwing additional complexities into
> the mix.
>
That might be of interest, can you point me at it please.


> Since the LAMP setup is available, there are other spreadsheet type
> applications that allow you to move from Google Docs to in-house.  Off the
> top of my head I can't think of the names I've used in the past (I write
> databases, not spreadsheets) but they are out there, free for all, just
> short of public domain (MIT maybe?), and in a
> 'download-extract-run-configure' format usually, which is GREAT with a LAMP
> setup.
>
Hmmm, why is it that all these apps are "... can't think of the names
..." ?  :-)


> The other option is to go ground up with PHP and some very basic AJAX
> calls, but even then, you'd need SOME kind of management.  How many rows to
> display, how many columns to display, do we add rows, remove rows, what
> field is what cast, validation requirements, data storage considerations,

No validation, just text fields.  Number of columns is defined by the
number of columns in the database table.  Open to 'all' because it's
on a home LAN with no (HTTP) access from outside.

> data VOLUME considerations, who accesses the data, what is read only and
> who/what can write to the table, are we talking one database, one table,
> one user, or, many databases, many tables, many users, does encryption come
> into play and if so at what level?  Some kind of management HAS to happen,
> like it or not.  And if basic management comes into play, you might as well
> stick with something that already exists (Google Docs, OpenOffice,
> LibreOffice, Excel, Notepad).
>

--
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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

David Bicking-2

I don't know php, but this sounds like what I think you want: phpGrid | PHP Datagrid Made Easy.

 
 phpGrid | PHP Datagrid Made Easy.
phpGrid is a simple, powerful and fully customizable PHP component for generating PHP AJAX datagrid for create, read, update, delete (CRUD) records.  
View on phpgrid.com Preview by Yahoo  
David


________________________________
 From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted
 

Stephen Chrzanowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> By the sounds of it, the OP wants a spreadsheet app, that isn't a
> spreadsheet app, acts like a database, but isn't quite a database, looks
> simple to use, but provide editable information in a reasonable format.
>
You're almost right.  Many people use spreadsheets for the sort of
data entry task that I'm trying to do but really spreadsheets aren't
optimum for the job. 

Yes, I basically want a spreadsheet data entry screen with a database
behind it.  However the *detail* of how spreadsheets work for data
entry isn't really ideal.


> To bring up a point about Google that RSmith brought up, Google Docs has a
> spreadsheet app that has zero install, accessible by many (If you want) and
> available from anywhere provided an internet connection is available, and
> allows you to edit, search, sort, filter, and all the other bells and
> whistles other spreadsheet and database applications have.  Mind you
> linking an external data requester application might be a bit of a PITA (If
> that is a requirement) might start throwing additional complexities into
> the mix.
>
That might be of interest, can you point me at it please.


> Since the LAMP setup is available, there are other spreadsheet type
> applications that allow you to move from Google Docs to in-house.  Off the
> top of my head I can't think of the names I've used in the past (I write
> databases, not spreadsheets) but they are out there, free for all, just
> short of public domain (MIT maybe?), and in a
> 'download-extract-run-configure' format usually, which is GREAT with a LAMP
> setup.
>
Hmmm, why is it that all these apps are "... can't think of the names
..." ?  :-)


> The other option is to go ground up with PHP and some very basic AJAX
> calls, but even then, you'd need SOME kind of management.  How many rows to
> display, how many columns to display, do we add rows, remove rows, what
> field is what cast, validation requirements, data storage considerations,

No validation, just text fields.  Number of columns is defined by the
number of columns in the database table.  Open to 'all' because it's
on a home LAN with no (HTTP) access from outside.

> data VOLUME considerations, who accesses the data, what is read only and
> who/what can write to the table, are we talking one database, one table,
> one user, or, many databases, many tables, many users, does encryption come
> into play and if so at what level?  Some kind of management HAS to happen,
> like it or not.  And if basic management comes into play, you might as well
> stick with something that already exists (Google Docs, OpenOffice,
> LibreOffice, Excel, Notepad).
>

--
Chris Green
·

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Re: Application with 'grid' form for entering table data wanted

mm.w
I know about that

https://github.com/j4mie/idiorm

no cargobay


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 7:08 AM, David Bicking <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I don't know php, but this sounds like what I think you want: phpGrid |
> PHP Datagrid Made Easy.
>
>
>  phpGrid | PHP Datagrid Made Easy.
> phpGrid is a simple, powerful and fully customizable PHP component for
> generating PHP AJAX datagrid for create, read, update, delete (CRUD)
> records.
> View on phpgrid.com Preview by Yahoo
> David
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] Application with 'grid' form for entering table
> data    wanted
>
>
> Stephen Chrzanowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > By the sounds of it, the OP wants a spreadsheet app, that isn't a
> > spreadsheet app, acts like a database, but isn't quite a database, looks
> > simple to use, but provide editable information in a reasonable format.
> >
> You're almost right.  Many people use spreadsheets for the sort of
> data entry task that I'm trying to do but really spreadsheets aren't
> optimum for the job.
>
> Yes, I basically want a spreadsheet data entry screen with a database
> behind it.  However the *detail* of how spreadsheets work for data
> entry isn't really ideal.
>
>
> > To bring up a point about Google that RSmith brought up, Google Docs has
> a
> > spreadsheet app that has zero install, accessible by many (If you want)
> and
> > available from anywhere provided an internet connection is available, and
> > allows you to edit, search, sort, filter, and all the other bells and
> > whistles other spreadsheet and database applications have.  Mind you
> > linking an external data requester application might be a bit of a PITA
> (If
> > that is a requirement) might start throwing additional complexities into
> > the mix.
> >
> That might be of interest, can you point me at it please.
>
>
> > Since the LAMP setup is available, there are other spreadsheet type
> > applications that allow you to move from Google Docs to in-house.  Off
> the
> > top of my head I can't think of the names I've used in the past (I write
> > databases, not spreadsheets) but they are out there, free for all, just
> > short of public domain (MIT maybe?), and in a
> > 'download-extract-run-configure' format usually, which is GREAT with a
> LAMP
> > setup.
> >
> Hmmm, why is it that all these apps are "... can't think of the names
> ..." ?  :-)
>
>
> > The other option is to go ground up with PHP and some very basic AJAX
> > calls, but even then, you'd need SOME kind of management.  How many rows
> to
> > display, how many columns to display, do we add rows, remove rows, what
> > field is what cast, validation requirements, data storage considerations,
>
> No validation, just text fields.  Number of columns is defined by the
> number of columns in the database table.  Open to 'all' because it's
> on a home LAN with no (HTTP) access from outside.
>
> > data VOLUME considerations, who accesses the data, what is read only and
> > who/what can write to the table, are we talking one database, one table,
> > one user, or, many databases, many tables, many users, does encryption
> come
> > into play and if so at what level?  Some kind of management HAS to
> happen,
> > like it or not.  And if basic management comes into play, you might as
> well
> > stick with something that already exists (Google Docs, OpenOffice,
> > LibreOffice, Excel, Notepad).
> >
>
> --
> Chris Green
> ·
>
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