Date time input

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Date time input

Jose Isaias Cabrera-4

Greetings.

I have to ask this question:  Why is it that the date function does not take a '4/5/2019' and returns '2019-04-05'?  This may have been asked before, and the answer may be some where in the internet, but, I could not find it.  The other thing is that it would be nice to have date take something like this,

date('2/15/2019','m/d/yyyy')

and return

2019-02-15

so I don't have to deal with the changes. :-)  Just wishing out-loud...  Thanks.

josé


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Re: Date time input

Roman Fleysher
I had to deal with a similar conversion.

I think the answer to why date() does not take other formats is simple: SQLite is minimalistic. This string processing can be done outside SQLite library.

Minimalism of SQLite is one of the criteria for what gets implemented. It has few mathematical operations, few string manipulations, subset of SQL, etc. Sqlite developers are very good at choosing which few to implement to give maximum of versatility. Every time I notice such decision I get more impressed. I hope you will experience such joy as well.

 

________________________________________
From: sqlite-users [[hidden email]] on behalf of Jose Isaias Cabrera [[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2019 9:17 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [sqlite] Date time input

Greetings.

I have to ask this question:  Why is it that the date function does not take a '4/5/2019' and returns '2019-04-05'?  This may have been asked before, and the answer may be some where in the internet, but, I could not find it.  The other thing is that it would be nice to have date take something like this,

date('2/15/2019','m/d/yyyy')

and return

2019-02-15

so I don't have to deal with the changes. :-)  Just wishing out-loud...  Thanks.

josé


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Re: Date time input

Keith Medcalf
In reply to this post by Jose Isaias Cabrera-4
On Monday, 7 October, 2019 07:17, Jose Isaias Cabrera <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I have to ask this question:  Why is it that the date function does not
>take a '4/5/2019' and returns '2019-04-05'?  

Because it does not.  Humans read things in big endian order.  For example, in the common base 10 system used everywhere in this solar system, the left most position contains the biggest thing, with the bigness represented by each digit decreasing by a factor of 10 as you travel from left to right.  When you are talking about datetime, the biggest thing is the year, then the month, then the day, then the hour, then the minute, then the seconds and fractions thereof.  Therefore, having datetimes in "parts are in descending order of bigness" is rational, consistent, cannot be misinterpreted, and requires no external rosetta stone for interpretation of the various parts.

How confusing would it be if one million four hundred thirty seven thousand six hundred and forty two were written as 4371426?

>This may have been asked
>before, and the answer may be some where in the internet, but, I could
>not find it.  The other thing is that it would be nice to have date take
>something like this,

>date('2/15/2019','m/d/yyyy')

This is exactly why.  Because the format is ambiguous and requires the input of an external rosetta stone key for decoding, such formats are not used.

>and return

>2019-02-15
>
>so I don't have to deal with the changes. :-)  Just wishing out-loud...

You can always write an extension function that translates between arbitrary datetime or number formats into standardized format, or use the built-in capabilities of your programming language standard library or Operating System to do that before you pass the data to SQLite3 in the format that it requires.  Just as SQLite3 does not recognize the string 4371426 as a valid representing of the number 1437642, it does not recognize that 4/5/6789 is 6789-04-05 (or is that 6789-05-04, or is it 04-6789-05 in the Alpha Centauri calendar?).

--
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.



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Re: Date time input

Simon Slavin-3
In reply to this post by Jose Isaias Cabrera-4
On 7 Oct 2019, at 2:17pm, Jose Isaias Cabrera <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have to ask this question:  Why is it that the date function does not take a '4/5/2019' and returns '2019-04-05'?

Those are human formats.  SQLite is a database management system.  Its job is to store data and allow it to be recalled in convenient ways.

Converting data to and from a convenient storage format is not the job of a DBMS.  If you want a software library which does date format conversion, you could go look for a software library which does date format conversion.  One which can be called from your preferred programming language.
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Re: Date time input

Donald Griggs
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
Hi, Jose,

Re: Wishing out loud.
Maybe an implementation of sscanf() would be more useful generally.

As to your date parsing problem, if you really insist on doing it in sql,
you may already know how to accomplish it with something like the UPDATE
below:


.mode column
.headers on

create table t1 (dt, dtIso); -- I'm assuming you meant input (dt) to be in
m-d-yyyy format (and not d-m-yyyy)

INSERT INTO t1 VALUES
   ('2/1/2017',   NULL),
   ('2/19/2019',  NULL),
   ('12/5/1955',  NULL),
   ('12/13/2018', NULL)
  ;

UPDATE t1 SET dtISO = printf('%04d-%02d-%02d',
   substr(dt, -4, 4),
   CAST(dt AS INTEGER),
   CAST ( replace(substr(dt, 3), '/', ' ')  AS INTEGER)
   );

SELECT * FROM t1;
-- output, using sqlite3.exe version 3.29.0, was:

dt          dtIso
----------  ----------
4/5/2019    2019-04-05
2/19/2019   2019-02-19
12/5/1955   1955-12-05
12/13/2018  2018-12-13

You can then check for a valid date with something like:
        SELECT  date('2019-12-32') isnull;
but if it's user input, you'd be sanitizing your inputs before they reach
sqlite, I should hope.

Donald



>
>
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Re: Date time input

Tim Streater-3
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
On 07 Oct 2019, at 17:19, Keith Medcalf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Monday, 7 October, 2019 07:17, Jose Isaias Cabrera <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>I have to ask this question:  Why is it that the date function does not
>>take a '4/5/2019' and returns '2019-04-05'?  
>
> Because it does not.  Humans read things in big endian order.

No, we read them in order of importance. If someone asks what the date is, the most useful answer is the day number of the month (not, for example, the year). Equally, if asomeone asks what time of day it is, the most useful answer is the hour (not, for example, the second). If someone asked me the date and time, I'd hardly respond "It's 2019 and its 27 seconds past." Wouldn't be that useful, now would it. So the most important item if first, then the others in decreasing order of importance.


--
Cheers  --  Tim
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Re: Date time input

Jens Alfke-2
In reply to this post by Jose Isaias Cabrera-4


> On Oct 7, 2019, at 6:17 AM, Jose Isaias Cabrera <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have to ask this question:  Why is it that the date function does not take a '4/5/2019' and returns '2019-04-05'?

Because that's locale-dependent. Some countries, like the US, use month/day/year; most other countries use day/month/year. To interpret such a date string, SQLite has to know what country's customs to use. And that is a pretty significant problem, since:

- Different operating systems communicate locale info in completely different ways
- The locale settings may not be applied at the layer of the OS where SQLite is running (example: Android only very recently started setting the C-level locale to match the GUI locale.)
- The current locale may not match the locale from which the date string originates

A database should not have to care about locales. It's supposed to process data in globally-consistent ways that don't depend on settings like that.

<grumpy>I swear, half the questions on this list build down to "Why doesn't SQLite act like MS Access?" If you need all the bells and whistles of formatting input and output, then use a fancy DBMS application. SQLite is for embedded use _inside_ applications.</grumpy>

—Jens
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Re: Date time input

Keith Medcalf

>Because that's locale-dependent. Some countries, like the US, use
>month/day/year; most other countries use day/month/year.

Maybe.  Canada supposedly uses the day/month/year format, or so I suddenly became aware of in 1998 when I was in my mid 30's.  Prior to that day it was m/d/y.  Then again, ever since I was 12 it was always y-m-d.  And the hours always went from 00 to 23.

>To interpret such a date string, SQLite has to know what country's
>customs to use. And that is a pretty significant problem, since:
>
>- Different operating systems communicate locale info in completely
>  different ways
>- The locale settings may not be applied at the layer of the OS where
>  SQLite is running (example: Android only very recently started setting
>  the C-level locale to match the GUI locale.)
>- The current locale may not match the locale from which the date string
>   originates

Not to mention that whoever you have appointed as the "authority" for "locale" probably has no bloody clue.  Plus of course if I get on an airplane and fly to Japan the locale is completely different from if I hop on a plane and fly to Amsterdam, and still different again if I fly to Miami.  No date entered in any one of those locale's will be parseable in any other.

In other words a date format of YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS.SSSSSSSSS TZ can always be unambiguosly parsed.  The others only perhaps maybe sometimes occassionally.

--
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.



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Re: Date time input

Jose Isaias Cabrera-4
In reply to this post by Jens Alfke-2

Jens Alfke, on Monday, October 7, 2019 09:18 PM, wrote...
[clip]
> <grumpy>I swear, half the questions on this list build down to "Why doesn't
> SQLite act like MS Access?" If you need all the bells and whistles of formatting
> input and output, then use a fancy DBMS application. SQLite is for embedded use
> _inside_ applications.</grumpy>

No, that is not what I was trying to say or ask.  Not even close. What I was trying to say, and most of you missed it was, that if I give date a date format, and I also provide the format of how that date is to be understood, ie.

date('5/22/2019','m/d/yyyy')

where the date is the first entry, '5/22/2019', and the format is the second entry, 'm/d/yyyy', that SQLite could take that set of data and easily convert and return the ISO date I want.  Yes, I know I can write that outside the code, or inside in SQL, but "it would be nice to have this."  Thanks for all the responses.

josé
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Date time input

Hick Gunter
What it boils down to is asking the data storage layer to perform a presentation layer task.

If you insist on solving the problem inside an SQL statement, you can always write your own extension function to "easily" perform the necessary conversion.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: sqlite-users [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Jose Isaias Cabrera
Gesendet: Dienstag, 08. Oktober 2019 14:32
An: SQLite mailing list <[hidden email]>
Betreff: [EXTERNAL] Re: [sqlite] Date time input


Jens Alfke, on Monday, October 7, 2019 09:18 PM, wrote...
[clip]
> <grumpy>I swear, half the questions on this list build down to "Why
> doesn't SQLite act like MS Access?" If you need all the bells and
> whistles of formatting input and output, then use a fancy DBMS
> application. SQLite is for embedded use _inside_
> applications.</grumpy>

No, that is not what I was trying to say or ask.  Not even close. What I was trying to say, and most of you missed it was, that if I give date a date format, and I also provide the format of how that date is to be understood, ie.

date('5/22/2019','m/d/yyyy')

where the date is the first entry, '5/22/2019', and the format is the second entry, 'm/d/yyyy', that SQLite could take that set of data and easily convert and return the ISO date I want.  Yes, I know I can write that outside the code, or inside in SQL, but "it would be nice to have this."  Thanks for all the responses.

josé
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___________________________________________
 Gunter Hick | Software Engineer | Scientific Games International GmbH | Klitschgasse 2-4, A-1130 Vienna | FN 157284 a, HG Wien, DVR: 0430013 | (O) +43 1 80100 - 0

May be privileged. May be confidential. Please delete if not the addressee.
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Date time input

Shawn Wagner
So, I have a bunch of sqlite extension modules that I really should polish
up for an official release Real Soon Now...

I just added a basic interface to the POSIX strptime() function to the
string functions library:

sqlite> .load ./libstring_funcs
sqlite> select date(strptime('%m/%d/%Y', '10/08/2019'), 'unixepoch') AS
today;
today
----------
2019-10-08

If anyone thinks they'd find it handy, the project lives at
https://github.com/shawnw/useful_sqlite_extensions/


On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 5:46 AM Hick Gunter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What it boils down to is asking the data storage layer to perform a
> presentation layer task.
>
> If you insist on solving the problem inside an SQL statement, you can
> always write your own extension function to "easily" perform the necessary
> conversion.
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: sqlite-users [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Im Auftrag von Jose Isaias Cabrera
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 08. Oktober 2019 14:32
> An: SQLite mailing list <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: [EXTERNAL] Re: [sqlite] Date time input
>
>
> Jens Alfke, on Monday, October 7, 2019 09:18 PM, wrote...
> [clip]
> > <grumpy>I swear, half the questions on this list build down to "Why
> > doesn't SQLite act like MS Access?" If you need all the bells and
> > whistles of formatting input and output, then use a fancy DBMS
> > application. SQLite is for embedded use _inside_
> > applications.</grumpy>
>
> No, that is not what I was trying to say or ask.  Not even close. What I
> was trying to say, and most of you missed it was, that if I give date a
> date format, and I also provide the format of how that date is to be
> understood, ie.
>
> date('5/22/2019','m/d/yyyy')
>
> where the date is the first entry, '5/22/2019', and the format is the
> second entry, 'm/d/yyyy', that SQLite could take that set of data and
> easily convert and return the ISO date I want.  Yes, I know I can write
> that outside the code, or inside in SQL, but "it would be nice to have
> this."  Thanks for all the responses.
>
> josé
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
>
> ___________________________________________
>  Gunter Hick | Software Engineer | Scientific Games International GmbH |
> Klitschgasse 2-4, A-1130 Vienna | FN 157284 a, HG Wien, DVR: 0430013 | (O)
> +43 1 80100 - 0
>
> May be privileged. May be confidential. Please delete if not the addressee.
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Date time input

Jose Isaias Cabrera-4
In reply to this post by Hick Gunter

Hick Gunter, on Tuesday, October 8, 2019 08:46 AM, wrote...
>
> What it boils down to is asking the data storage layer to perform a presentation
> layer task.

Thanks, Hick.

>
> If you insist on solving the problem inside an SQL statement, you can always
> write your own extension function to "easily" perform the necessary conversion.

I am not insisting.  I am just saying, "it would be nice..." :-) Yes, I had to write a small SQLite piece of code, like Donald Griggs wrote to get this to work. Thanks.

josé

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Date time input

Jose Isaias Cabrera-4
In reply to this post by Shawn Wagner

Shawn Wagner, on Tuesday, October 8, 2019 09:40 AM, wrote...

>
> So, I have a bunch of sqlite extension modules that I really should polish
> up for an official release Real Soon Now...
>
> I just added a basic interface to the POSIX strptime() function to the
> string functions library:
>
> sqlite> .load ./libstring_funcs
> sqlite> select date(strptime('%m/%d/%Y', '10/08/2019'), 'unixepoch') AS
> today;
> today
> ----------
> 2019-10-08
>
> If anyone thinks they'd find it handy, the project lives at
> https://github.com/shawnw/useful_sqlite_extensions/

Wow, these are pretty cool.  Thanks.

josé

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Re: Date time input

Jens Alfke-2
In reply to this post by Jose Isaias Cabrera-4

> On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Jose Isaias Cabrera <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> No, that is not what I was trying to say or ask.  Not even close. What I was trying to say, and most of you missed it was, that if I give date a date format, and I also provide the format of how that date is to be understood, ie....

Sorry for misunderstanding. But I think this goes against SQLite’s design goal of simplicity. Date-time formatting is complicated, so this would add measurably to the library’s footprint*, which would be a problem for using it in embedded systems, which would require yet another compile-time configuration flag to enable/disable it, which would complicate testing... etc.

I think the idea of a semi-official ”SQLite++” has been floated here before: a distro with lots of extensions and a more powerful CLI. I like that idea.

—Jens

* Yes, strptime/strftime are in the standard library. But in an embedded system that library is statically linked into your binary (there is no OS), so if those functions are not dead-stripped, your footprint goes up.
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Re: Date time input

Jose Isaias Cabrera-4


Jens Alfke, on Tuesday, October 8, 2019 12:06 PM, wrote...

>
>
> > On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:34 AM, Jose Isaias Cabrera, on
> >
> > No, that is not what I was trying to say or ask.  Not even close. What I was
> trying to say, and most of you missed it was, that if I give date a date format,
> and I also provide the format of how that date is to be understood, ie....
>
> Sorry for misunderstanding. But I think this goes against SQLite’s design goal of
> simplicity. Date-time formatting is complicated, so this would add measurably to
> the library’s footprint*, which would be a problem for using it in embedded
> systems, which would require yet another compile-time configuration flag to
> enable/disable it, which would complicate testing... etc.

I agree.

> I think the idea of a semi-official ”SQLite++” has been floated here before: a
> distro with lots of extensions and a more powerful CLI. I like that idea.

That would be something!

josé
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Re: Date time input

James K. Lowden
In reply to this post by Jens Alfke-2
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:06:24 -0700
Jens Alfke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think the idea of a semi-official ?SQLite++? has been floated here
> before

OK, but it needs a better name.  What better place than here to debate
that?  ;-)  

What the opposite of "Lite"?  I don't know.  It's like asking for the
opposite of "organic" milk.  What we have is "milk" and "organic
milk".  In a just and rational world, we'd have "milk" and "industrial
milk".  Milk is, after all, organic to start with.  

Moving on...

We can't us be fat-shaming and all, calling it "SQLfat" or "SQLobese"
or somesuch. "SQLoaded" seems intoxicated.  "SQLplus" isn't accurate;
it's not more than SQL.  

IMO something fanciful is called for.  I nominate "SQLippo".  After the
hippopotamus, not lipposuction, but it's mnemonic either way.  

Mud, mud, glorious mud!  

--jkl
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Re: Date time input

James K. Lowden
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:17:14 +0100
Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Converting data to and from a convenient storage format is not the
> job of a DBMS.

While I have no quarrel with your specific point about date strings,
this particular statement is too broad.  Arguably, data conversion is
an inherent, central part of what the DBMS does.  Unless, that is,
you're adept at interpreting IEEE floating point as 1s and 0s.

--jkl
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Re: Date time input

Simon Slavin-3
On 8 Oct 2019, at 7:39pm, James K. Lowden <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Converting data to and from a convenient storage format is not the
>> job of a DBMS.
>
> While I have no quarrel with your specific point about date strings,
> this particular statement is too broad. Arguably, data conversion is
> an inherent, central part of what the DBMS does. Unless, that is,
> you're adept at interpreting IEEE floating point as 1s and 0s.

You're right.  What I meant was something more like "Converting data to and from your presentation format …".

On the subject of a name for the heavy version of SQLite, I'd suggest SQLThicc, but the 'thicc' meme will have gone away in a few years.  Actually, since it won't be supported that long, it's not such a bad name.
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Re: Date time input

Jose Isaias Cabrera-4
In reply to this post by James K. Lowden

James K. Lowden, on Tuesday, October 8, 2019 02:39 PM, wrote...
>
> On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:06:24 -0700
> Jens Alfke, on
>
> > I think the idea of a semi-official ?SQLite++? has been floated here
> > before
>
> OK, but it needs a better name.  What better place than here to debate
> that?  ;-)

SQLiteNoMore

josé
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Re: Date time input

Doug
I like SQLoaded!
Doug

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sqlite-users <[hidden email]>
> On Behalf Of Jose Isaias Cabrera
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2019 12:15 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] Date time input
>
>
> James K. Lowden, on Tuesday, October 8, 2019 02:39 PM, wrote...
> >
> > On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:06:24 -0700
> > Jens Alfke, on
> >
> > > I think the idea of a semi-official ?SQLite++? has been
> floated here
> > > before
> >
> > OK, but it needs a better name.  What better place than here to
> debate
> > that?  ;-)
>
> SQLiteNoMore
>
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