Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

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Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Philip Bennefall
Hi all,


I had a quick question regarding the licensing of the delta compression
code found in the sqldiff and the RBU extensions for SqLite. I see that
this code is extracted from Fossil, which is under the BSD license. But
the header of the source files in the SqLite repository which contain
the delta compression code are marked as public domain. Does that mean
that the delta compression code extracted from Fossil is also public
domain? Could I borrow it from SqLite and use it without being bound by
the BSD license?


Kind regards,


Philip Bennefall

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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Richard Hipp-3
On 5/6/18, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> I had a quick question regarding the licensing of the delta compression
> code found in the sqldiff and the RBU extensions for SqLite. I see that
> this code is extracted from Fossil, which is under the BSD license. But
> the header of the source files in the SqLite repository which contain
> the delta compression code are marked as public domain. Does that mean
> that the delta compression code extracted from Fossil is also public
> domain? Could I borrow it from SqLite and use it without being bound by
> the BSD license?

Does it matter whether the code is public domain or two-clause BSD?
There are no restrictions on its use in either case, are there?

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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Philip Bennefall
Only the requirement for attribution in binaries. That can be
significant in certain use cases.


Kind regards,


Philip Bennefall


On 5/6/2018 6:19 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

> On 5/6/18, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>> I had a quick question regarding the licensing of the delta compression
>> code found in the sqldiff and the RBU extensions for SqLite. I see that
>> this code is extracted from Fossil, which is under the BSD license. But
>> the header of the source files in the SqLite repository which contain
>> the delta compression code are marked as public domain. Does that mean
>> that the delta compression code extracted from Fossil is also public
>> domain? Could I borrow it from SqLite and use it without being bound by
>> the BSD license?
> Does it matter whether the code is public domain or two-clause BSD?
> There are no restrictions on its use in either case, are there?
>

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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Peter da Silva
On 5/6/18, 11:23 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Philip Bennefall" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
    Only the requirement for attribution in binaries. That can be
    significant in certain use cases.

One line of text in the documentation provided with the distribution doesn't seem burdensome. It's not like the advertising clause in the original BSD license... is that what you're thinking of?
 

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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Philip Bennefall
As far as I can judge, you need to include the entire license - or at
least the majority of it - in the documentation (not just a single
line). For an end user product that's fine, but I would rather not have
to ask clients to do so if I am distributing middleware simply because
of a component that I use internally and which they never see. It's a
pretty big difference from public domain in that respect, though I
realize that it is a difference that many people don't care about.

I would be curious to hear what the developers think about this, since
this license differs from the rest of the SqLite codebase. Of course it
is an extension so you don't need to include it, but I'm curious
nonetheless.

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
On 5/7/2018 4:54 PM, Peter Da Silva wrote:

> On 5/6/18, 11:23 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Philip Bennefall" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>      Only the requirement for attribution in binaries. That can be
>      significant in certain use cases.
>
> One line of text in the documentation provided with the distribution doesn't seem burdensome. It's not like the advertising clause in the original BSD license... is that what you're thinking of?
>  
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users

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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Richard Hipp-3
You are welcomed to use the public-domain version of the delta
encoding routines found in the SQLite source tree for whatever purpose
you want, without attribution.  I am the sole author of that code, and
I am a citizen of a country that allows people to disavow intellectual
property claims, so it is possible for me to say this.

On 5/7/18, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As far as I can judge, you need to include the entire license - or at
> least the majority of it - in the documentation (not just a single
> line). For an end user product that's fine, but I would rather not have
> to ask clients to do so if I am distributing middleware simply because
> of a component that I use internally and which they never see. It's a
> pretty big difference from public domain in that respect, though I
> realize that it is a difference that many people don't care about.
>
> I would be curious to hear what the developers think about this, since
> this license differs from the rest of the SqLite codebase. Of course it
> is an extension so you don't need to include it, but I'm curious
> nonetheless.
>
> Thanks in advance for any clarification.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Philip Bennefall
> On 5/7/2018 4:54 PM, Peter Da Silva wrote:
>> On 5/6/18, 11:23 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Philip Bennefall"
>> <[hidden email] on behalf of
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>      Only the requirement for attribution in binaries. That can be
>>      significant in certain use cases.
>>
>> One line of text in the documentation provided with the distribution
>> doesn't seem burdensome. It's not like the advertising clause in the
>> original BSD license... is that what you're thinking of?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sqlite-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>


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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Philip Bennefall
Thanks very much for that information, Richard! :)

I don't know if it would make any difference legally, but perhaps this
could be made explicit in the comments?

Thanks again.

Kind regards,

Philip
On 5/7/2018 5:22 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

> You are welcomed to use the public-domain version of the delta
> encoding routines found in the SQLite source tree for whatever purpose
> you want, without attribution.  I am the sole author of that code, and
> I am a citizen of a country that allows people to disavow intellectual
> property claims, so it is possible for me to say this.
>
> On 5/7/18, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As far as I can judge, you need to include the entire license - or at
>> least the majority of it - in the documentation (not just a single
>> line). For an end user product that's fine, but I would rather not have
>> to ask clients to do so if I am distributing middleware simply because
>> of a component that I use internally and which they never see. It's a
>> pretty big difference from public domain in that respect, though I
>> realize that it is a difference that many people don't care about.
>>
>> I would be curious to hear what the developers think about this, since
>> this license differs from the rest of the SqLite codebase. Of course it
>> is an extension so you don't need to include it, but I'm curious
>> nonetheless.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any clarification.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Philip Bennefall
>> On 5/7/2018 4:54 PM, Peter Da Silva wrote:
>>> On 5/6/18, 11:23 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Philip Bennefall"
>>> <[hidden email] on behalf of
>>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>>       Only the requirement for attribution in binaries. That can be
>>>       significant in certain use cases.
>>>
>>> One line of text in the documentation provided with the distribution
>>> doesn't seem burdensome. It's not like the advertising clause in the
>>> original BSD license... is that what you're thinking of?
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sqlite-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>> _______________________________________________
>> sqlite-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>>
>

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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

R Smith-2

On 2018/05/07 5:33 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
> Thanks very much for that information, Richard! :)
>
> I don't know if it would make any difference legally, but perhaps this
> could be made explicit in the comments?

So it's not enough to get it free... the free giver has to now put some
extra labour for zero reward into convincing people it is free to use.

This is a crazy World. :)


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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Philip Bennefall
It was merely an idea to possibly avoid some potential ambiguity
regarding public domain, which is a bit of a gray area in many places.
Obviously not a requirement for anyone to do anything, it was but a
friendly question.


Kind regards,

Philip
On 5/7/2018 5:44 PM, R Smith wrote:

>
> On 2018/05/07 5:33 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
>> Thanks very much for that information, Richard! :)
>>
>> I don't know if it would make any difference legally, but perhaps
>> this could be made explicit in the comments?
>
> So it's not enough to get it free... the free giver has to now put
> some extra labour for zero reward into convincing people it is free to
> use.
>
> This is a crazy World. :)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users

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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

R Smith-2
On 2018/05/07 5:53 PM, Philip Bennefall wrote:
> It was merely an idea to possibly avoid some potential ambiguity
> regarding public domain, which is a bit of a gray area in many places.
> Obviously not a requirement for anyone to do anything, it was but a
> friendly question.

All good sir, the jibe was aimed at the legal peculiarity and not at the
request.



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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Warren Young
In reply to this post by Philip Bennefall
On May 7, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It was merely an idea to possibly avoid some potential ambiguity regarding public domain, which is a bit of a gray area in many places.

So take the code under the explicit license, then.

In my non-expert opinion, the worry over attribution is bogus.  Restriction 2 in the 2-clause BSD license just requires that the license text itself be in the binary, not that you “attribute” the software in your documentation or in a startup banner as is required by some other licenses.

Fossil itself doesn’t bother to do even that:

    $ strings `which fossil` | grep 'IMPLIED WARRANTIES'


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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Philip Bennefall
I am far from an expert in this field myself so I don't know whether
including it in the text section of the binary would be enough, and the
main issue for me is when clients of mine redistribute middleware in
their turn as I mentioned in an earlier post. But either way, Richard
already cleared this up so there's no more ambiguity on my end.

Kind regards,

Philip
On 5/7/2018 11:11 PM, Warren Young wrote:

> On May 7, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It was merely an idea to possibly avoid some potential ambiguity regarding public domain, which is a bit of a gray area in many places.
> So take the code under the explicit license, then.
>
> In my non-expert opinion, the worry over attribution is bogus.  Restriction 2 in the 2-clause BSD license just requires that the license text itself be in the binary, not that you “attribute” the software in your documentation or in a startup banner as is required by some other licenses.
>
> Fossil itself doesn’t bother to do even that:
>
>      $ strings `which fossil` | grep 'IMPLIED WARRANTIES'
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users

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Re: Fossil Delta Compression in SqLite

Bob Friesenhahn
In reply to this post by Warren Young
On Mon, 7 May 2018, Warren Young wrote:

> On May 7, 2018, at 9:53 AM, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It was merely an idea to possibly avoid some potential ambiguity regarding public domain, which is a bit of a gray area in many places.
>
> So take the code under the explicit license, then.
>
> In my non-expert opinion, the worry over attribution is bogus.  Restriction 2 in the 2-clause BSD license just requires that the license text itself be in the binary, not that you “attribute” the software in your documentation or in a startup banner as is required by some other licenses.
>
> Fossil itself doesn’t bother to do even that:
>
>    $ strings `which fossil` | grep 'IMPLIED WARRANTIES'

It seems that you failed to read the 2-Clause BSD License before
commenting about it.  There is no requirement to put text in binaries.
There is only a requirement to include the license text in
documentation (assuming that the dependent software provides any
documentation).

   https://opensource.org/licenses/BSD-2-Clause

Bob
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