How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

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How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Frank Missel-2
I think that the sqlite-users e-mail list has enough traffic to warrant a
proper forum.

Has this been considered?

 

A proper forum also can contain several subject forums, e.g.

USER FORUMS:

Announcements

General

Help with SQL

News

DEVELOPERS CORNER:

News

General

OS specific

.

 

There is a quite widespread, free Forum software that could be used:

http://www.simplemachines.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Machines_Forum

 

They support MySQL, SQLite and PostgreSQL as the underlying database.

 

Well, just a thought.

 

 

/Frank Missel

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Teg-3
Hello Frank,

I love forums and consider them far superior to email if only because
it's easier to follow a topic with less quoting needed. The downside is
that  someone  has  to  manage the forum. I've managed a forum for the
past  10  years  and there's a daily spam cleanup process and constant
attacks and required upgrades.  You have to set the tone and be pretty
ruthless about flaming too.

I'd like to see a forum. I just wouldn't want to manage it.

C


Tuesday, October 18, 2011, 5:32:46 AM, you wrote:

FM> I think that the sqlite-users e-mail list has enough traffic to warrant a
FM> proper forum.

FM> Has this been considered?

FM>  

FM> A proper forum also can contain several subject forums, e.g.

FM> USER FORUMS:

FM> Announcements

FM> General

FM> Help with SQL

FM> News

FM> DEVELOPERS CORNER:

FM> News

FM> General

FM> OS specific

FM> .

FM>  

FM> There is a quite widespread, free Forum software that could be used:

FM> http://www.simplemachines.org/

FM> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Machines_Forum

FM>  

FM> They support MySQL, SQLite and PostgreSQL as the underlying database.

FM>  

FM> Well, just a thought.

FM>  

FM>  

FM> /Frank Missel

FM> _______________________________________________
FM> sqlite-users mailing list
FM> [hidden email]
FM> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users




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Best regards,
 Teg                            mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Frank Missel
Hi Teg,

> I love forums and consider them far superior to email if only because it's
> easier to follow a topic with less quoting needed. The downside is that
> someone  has  to  manage the forum. I've managed a forum for the past  10
> years  and there's a daily spam cleanup process and constant attacks and
> required upgrades.  You have to set the tone and be pretty ruthless about
> flaming too.
>
> I'd like to see a forum. I just wouldn't want to manage it.

Okay, but if the posting is by members only would it not be the same as the
e-mail-lists.
I don't see a lot of spam in the e-mail-list, so either it also monitored by
someone or the fact that it can only be accessed by members makes for a well
behaved list which would be the same for the forum.

/Frank

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

dannyst
I for one would love a forum, and disagree about it being the same as an
email list.  I would love to not see 40+ emails in my inbox every day from
this mailing list, but I do find the available resource handy to have when I
need it.  A forum would allow us to be more active because we can quickly
and easily ask questions and follow the conversation rather than having to
scan through a myriad of other emails, or try and follow the reply chain
when a flood comes in.  It would also allow us to keep our inboxes a lot
cleaner and clutter free which would be very very nice.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Missel
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:35 AM
To: 'Teg' ; 'General Discussion of SQLite Database'
Subject: Re: [sqlite] How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Hi Teg,

> I love forums and consider them far superior to email if only because it's
> easier to follow a topic with less quoting needed. The downside is that
> someone  has  to  manage the forum. I've managed a forum for the past  10
> years  and there's a daily spam cleanup process and constant attacks and
> required upgrades.  You have to set the tone and be pretty ruthless about
> flaming too.
>
> I'd like to see a forum. I just wouldn't want to manage it.

Okay, but if the posting is by members only would it not be the same as the
e-mail-lists.
I don't see a lot of spam in the e-mail-list, so either it also monitored by
someone or the fact that it can only be accessed by members makes for a well
behaved list which would be the same for the forum.

/Frank

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Eugene N
People might think that nothing will change if we move to a forum; Yet there
is a great difference between a letter (though its email, not paper) and a
forum post; Letters are usually more formal, more tidy, without spam and
trolling;
   A forum post and a forum itself is completely different media, and people
have a different attitude to forum posts then they do to letters;
Letters resemble real-world communication more closely, in a way that they
provide a link between two people, not 'forum members', but real people;
   Its quite ingenious when you think about this: stationary phones are used
to connect buildings together (chain of command, etc), letters (and mobile
phones) are used to connect people, no matter where they are;
Internet and forums connect people, no matter who they are, even strangers
can talk, given that the subject is interesting to both parties;
   Mailing lists are the last defense of the web, where one can converse to
people he formally knows, about things they are formally involved in;

As for keeping email accounts clean and compact - i suggest one can write a
nice script to delete unneeded things;

2011/10/18 Danny Staten <[hidden email]>

> I for one would love a forum, and disagree about it being the same as an
> email list.  I would love to not see 40+ emails in my inbox every day from
> this mailing list, but I do find the available resource handy to have when I
> need it.  A forum would allow us to be more active because we can quickly
> and easily ask questions and follow the conversation rather than having to
> scan through a myriad of other emails, or try and follow the reply chain
> when a flood comes in.  It would also allow us to keep our inboxes a lot
> cleaner and clutter free which would be very very nice.
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Frank Missel
> Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:35 AM
> To: 'Teg' ; 'General Discussion of SQLite Database'
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list
>
>
> Hi Teg,
>
>  I love forums and consider them far superior to email if only because it's
>> easier to follow a topic with less quoting needed. The downside is that
>> someone  has  to  manage the forum. I've managed a forum for the past  10
>> years  and there's a daily spam cleanup process and constant attacks and
>> required upgrades.  You have to set the tone and be pretty ruthless about
>> flaming too.
>>
>> I'd like to see a forum. I just wouldn't want to manage it.
>>
>
> Okay, but if the posting is by members only would it not be the same as the
> e-mail-lists.
> I don't see a lot of spam in the e-mail-list, so either it also monitored
> by
> someone or the fact that it can only be accessed by members makes for a
> well
> behaved list which would be the same for the forum.
>
> /Frank
>
> ______________________________**_________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-**bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-**users<http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users>
> ______________________________**_________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
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> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-**bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-**users<http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users>
>
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Eric Pankoke
In reply to this post by dannyst
I'll say one thing - a forum would have saved me the wasted time of having to download and then delete all of this discussion about forums :)




----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Staten" <[hidden email]>
To: "General Discussion of SQLite Database" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 9:59:09 AM
Subject: Re: [sqlite] How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

I for one would love a forum, and disagree about it being the same as an
email list. I would love to not see 40+ emails in my inbox every day from
this mailing list, but I do find the available resource handy to have when I
need it. A forum would allow us to be more active because we can quickly
and easily ask questions and follow the conversation rather than having to
scan through a myriad of other emails, or try and follow the reply chain
when a flood comes in. It would also allow us to keep our inboxes a lot
cleaner and clutter free which would be very very nice.

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Missel
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:35 AM
To: 'Teg' ; 'General Discussion of SQLite Database'
Subject: Re: [sqlite] How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Hi Teg,

> I love forums and consider them far superior to email if only because it's
> easier to follow a topic with less quoting needed. The downside is that
> someone has to manage the forum. I've managed a forum for the past 10
> years and there's a daily spam cleanup process and constant attacks and
> required upgrades. You have to set the tone and be pretty ruthless about
> flaming too.
>
> I'd like to see a forum. I just wouldn't want to manage it.

Okay, but if the posting is by members only would it not be the same as the
e-mail-lists.
I don't see a lot of spam in the e-mail-list, so either it also monitored by
someone or the fact that it can only be accessed by members makes for a well
behaved list which would be the same for the forum.

/Frank

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Simon Slavin-3

On 18 Oct 2011, at 3:22pm, [hidden email] wrote:

> I'll say one thing - a forum would have saved me the wasted time of having to download and then delete all of this discussion about forums :)

'man killfile'

Or, since we're now in the 21st century, create a rule for your mail app.

The way to settle this is easy: leave the mailing list in place.  Create a web forum.  If people abandon the mailing list and start using the web forum instead, it worked.  If people stay with the mailing list, the mailing list is superior.

Simon.
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Yves Goergen
On 18.10.2011 16:40 CE(S)T, Simon Slavin wrote:
> The way to settle this is easy: leave the mailing list in place.
> Create a web forum.  If people abandon the mailing list and start
> using the web forum instead, it worked.  If people stay with the
> mailing list, the mailing list is superior.

I don't think many would want to be in two places that serve the same
purpose. You can't make a forum a success if the old way still remains
active. A forum will only be successful if people are there to post. And
if nobody posts there, nobody will go there. If the mailing list was
replaced by a forum, everybody would go to the forum. But you definitely
should ask the mailing list users whether they would prefer moving over
to a forum, otherwise many might be angry.

I would also very much prefer a web-based forum. The whole concept has
many advantages over e-mail lists and only few disadvantages.

+ Easy access, no setup (subscription, rules etc.)
+ Easily searchable archive with modern and usable UI
+ Post editing and moderation support (if someone messed it up)
  -> Allows to correct thread hijacking or wrong subject
+ Solid threading support (not every MUA can do it well)
+ Following single threads, with notification
+ URL to any content, directly from the primary UI
+ Optional source code syntax highlighting
+ Less traffic in your mailbox, you only read what you want
+ No publicly published e-mail address (spam etc.)

o More "generation Facebook"-like (is this an advantage at all?)

- Web-based UI may be less efficient for some (married with their MUA;
  also greatly depends on the forum software being used!)

Further reading: http://halr9000.com/article/179

Having said that, unfortunately I don't have the time to set it up and
manage it, but I'm far too little into this community. I'm just a reader
and rare questioner... But you'd need a few moderators to operate a
forum anyway.

--
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

John M. Drescher
> If the mailing list was replaced by a forum, everybody would go to the forum.
>
The failure in this logic is that is not true. I already said I would
not bother with the forum and I was not the only one.

John
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Simon Slavin-3

On 23 Oct 2011, at 3:00pm, John Drescher wrote:

>> If the mailing list was replaced by a forum, everybody would go to the forum.
>
> The failure in this logic is that is not true. I already said I would
> not bother with the forum and I was not the only one.

I would bother with a web forum only if it had an RSS feed.  And even then I'd have to get in the habit of using an RSS reader, which I don't currently do with work-type stuff.  Part of the attraction of this list is that I don't have to think "Oh, I want to read a lot of SQLite-related stuff now !".

Simon.
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Yves Goergen
On 23.10.2011 16:05 CE(S)T, Simon Slavin wrote:
>>> If the mailing list was replaced by a forum, everybody would go to the forum.
>> The failure in this logic is that is not true. I already said I would
>> not bother with the forum and I was not the only one.

You would, if it was really replaced. Otherwise you wouldn't have a
place for discussion anymore. But with many opinions like this, the
mailing list should indeed not be replaced by a forum, and then, no
forum should be set up. (Personal opinion: Let's do progress somewhere
else.)

> Part of the attraction of this list is that I don't have to think
> "Oh, I want to read a lot of SQLite-related stuff now !".

What do you mean? I don't get it.

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Simon Slavin-3

On 27 Oct 2011, at 4:41pm, Yves Goergen wrote:

> On 23.10.2011 16:05 CE(S)T, Simon Slavin wrote:
>> Part of the attraction of this list is that I don't have to think
>> "Oh, I want to read a lot of SQLite-related stuff now !".
>
> What do you mean? I don't get it.

If I had to go to a separate forum for my SQLite thoughts, I wouldn't bother to go very often.  Because most of the time there's nothing there that interests me.  An advantage of a mailing list is that the SQLite messages roll in gradually, mixed with other stuff that requires less concentration to understand.  I'm not put off by the idea that I'll now have to wade through 20 posts I'm not interested in.

Simon.
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Nico Williams
In reply to this post by Yves Goergen
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:42 AM, Yves Goergen
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 18.10.2011 16:40 CE(S)T, Simon Slavin wrote:
>> The way to settle this is easy: leave the mailing list in place.
>> Create a web forum.  If people abandon the mailing list and start
>> using the web forum instead, it worked.  If people stay with the
>> mailing list, the mailing list is superior.
>
> I don't think many would want to be in two places that serve the same
> purpose. You can't make a forum a success if the old way still remains
> active. A forum will only be successful if people are there to post. And
> if nobody posts there, nobody will go there. If the mailing list was
> replaced by a forum, everybody would go to the forum. But you definitely
> should ask the mailing list users whether they would prefer moving over
> to a forum, otherwise many might be angry.

If some people *really* want a forum (I don't understand the desire
for a forum, but grant that some people want it) and some people
*really* want a list (I know this for a fact because I'm want of them)
and pleasing both groups is important to the SQLite3 team (I've no
clue about this) then setup a forum interface to the mailing list (who
would be opposed to that?).

> I would also very much prefer a web-based forum. The whole concept has
> many advantages over e-mail lists and only few disadvantages.
>
> + Easy access, no setup (subscription, rules etc.)

The same is true of the list.  You do not have to subscribe to read
it, and it could be made to allow posts by non-subscribers, to to have
subscribers that don't get copies of the e-mails.

Anyways, you have to register to post on a forum, and that's not
terribly different from subscribing to a list.

> + Easily searchable archive with modern and usable UI

Same is true of a mailing list.  But mailing lists are even easier to
search because you can use your favorite MUA's search capabilities if
you like *in addition to* your favorite web search engine and your
favorite mail archive web interface (gmane, ...).

> + Post editing and moderation support (if someone messed it up)
>  -> Allows to correct thread hijacking or wrong subject

I don't care.

> + Solid threading support (not every MUA can do it well)

Get an MUA that works right then.

> + Following single threads, with notification

Get a decent MUA.

> + URL to any content, directly from the primary UI

The list software could be made to include a URL for every message
posted in that same message (that'd be nice).

> + Optional source code syntax highlighting

And XSS attack vectors?  No thanks.

> + Less traffic in your mailbox, you only read what you want

Use filters, or separate accounts for lists, ...

> + No publicly published e-mail address (spam etc.)

Forums get forum spam.  They also tend to come with ads.

> o More "generation Facebook"-like (is this an advantage at all?)

I don't think so, but maybe I'm just old skool.

> - Web-based UI may be less efficient for some (married with their MUA;
>  also greatly depends on the forum software being used!)

I use several MUAs; not married to any one.  I've used many web fora,
but I've yet to find one that isn't deeply unsatisfying in some way or
another.

Nico
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Yves Goergen
Sorry for my late reply, I look into mailing lists only once every few
weeks or when I'm posting something.

On 27.10.2011 18:29 CE(S)T, Nico Williams wrote:
> then setup a forum interface to the mailing list

Then please take good care to use a frontend that uses compatible markup
formatting (or none at all, which would not be as appealing) as e-mail
programmes do. Otherwise you'll end up with stuff like BBCode in e-mails.

>> + Easy access, no setup (subscription, rules etc.)
>
> The same is true of the list.  You do not have to subscribe to read
> it, and it could be made to allow posts by non-subscribers, to to have
> subscribers that don't get copies of the e-mails.

Huh? Subscribers don't get e-mails from non-subscribers?

Anyway, if you want to participate in a mailing list without
subscription, you need a decent web frontend, which a forum is and a
mailing list archive is usually not at all.

> Anyways, you have to register to post on a forum, and that's not
> terribly different from subscribing to a list.

You could still use things like OpenID (or some other external
authentication, say Facebook, just to name one) to make that process
seamless and really easy.

>> + Easily searchable archive with modern and usable UI
>
> Same is true of a mailing list.  But mailing lists are even easier to
> search because you can use your favorite MUA's search capabilities if
> you like *in addition to* your favorite web search engine and your
> favorite mail archive web interface (gmane, ...).

You can only search so far as your subscription reaches back. For
newcomers, this is absolutely useless.

But I personally am already used to not using any kind of site search,
like in forums, mailing lists or bug trackers. If Google doesn't find
it, it's not there, nor is anything similar-written. That seems to be
the most effective solution.

>> + Post editing and moderation support (if someone messed it up)
>>  -> Allows to correct thread hijacking or wrong subject
>
> I don't care.

So you don't care about threading? Really? Why do *you* use it then? If
somebody hijacks my thread, I always see new posts in that thread
although they're not for my problem. That sucks.

>> + Solid threading support (not every MUA can do it well)
>
> Get an MUA that works right then.

Tell that users of a cheap free web mailer or Windows Mail (f.k.a.
Outlook Express).

>> + URL to any content, directly from the primary UI
>
> The list software could be made to include a URL for every message
> posted in that same message (that'd be nice).

Cool, that's the first time I hear that's possible. :-)

>> + Optional source code syntax highlighting
>
> And XSS attack vectors?  No thanks.

XSS is JavaScript. Syntax Highlighting is CSS. Different things. You can
do about anything without JavaScript, it just adds a lot of comfort.

>> + Less traffic in your mailbox, you only read what you want
>
> Use filters, or separate accounts for lists, ...

That's what *I* do. But how many do it? I imagine there's a lot of
people who are interested in SQLite but not in professional (traditional
internet wise, not in an enterprise where Outlook is used, which is not
a decent MUA in that sense) mail management and processing, which can
get just as complex. Just because you know how to do it "right", that
doesn't mean everybody does. I have the impression that quite some
mailing list defenders are a bit selfish in that regard.

>> + No publicly published e-mail address (spam etc.)
>
> Forums get forum spam.  They also tend to come with ads.

Tend is something the forum admin can control. And forum spam can be
deleted later, mailing list spam (or e-mail spam) not.

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Yves Goergen
In reply to this post by Nico Williams
>> + Easy access, no setup (subscription, rules etc.)

Oh and did I mention the complicated confirmation and registration
methods? I just subscribed to a PHP mailing list. At least I tried. I
have no idea what happened. I received at least two confirmation
e-mails, and of course you get no immediate feedback, all mail from the
list is either delayed or my message was ignored. It's no fun reading
two pages of stuff I need to do until I can participate at the list.
("Copy this text and send a mail to that address, or reply, or do
nothing, or wait, or this or that...")

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Yves Goergen
In reply to this post by Nico Williams
>> + Easy access, no setup (subscription, rules etc.)

Oh, and some lists have a list ID header, some have another, some have
none and I need to write mail filters by subject. That's pretty much
guesswork every time I subscribe to a mailing list.

And some lists echo my own mail back to me, some don't, while I need my
own echo for proper threading in Thunderbird. Some digest and then
people reply to that digest with totally useless thread subject which I
will never read because it doesn't have interesting words in it. (Unless
I'm following something 100% which I rarely do today.)

And some lists have a web configuration interface, some don't and I
cannot check or set up anything.

Do you understand why I'm really fed up with mailing lists? I mean, if
there was at least some standard how to use and access it, it might be
easier. Web forums are all different as well, but still more the same
than mailing lists. Usability is also about learning, but you cannot
learn things that change all the time.

Sorry for the spam, but today I really made enough bad experience with
mailing lists for a whole month.

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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Nico Williams
You're not yet convincing me (though that probably doesn't matter);
repeating my arguments would be obnoxious (or worse: boring!), so I
won't.  Let's try a different approach: what's the ideal here?  Here's
my answer: a plethora of interfaces to the same data (posts/threads).

I'd like to see:

 - RSS/Atom feeds
 - web UIs ("web forum" UIs)
 - stable HTTP APIs
 - mobile apps specifically for fora (probably based on HTTP APIs)
 - e-mail interface (mailing list)
 - archives that can be downloaded, as well as searched online
 - maybe even Usenet bridging

I believe all of that can be achieved with a mailing list as the
underlying method of organizing the data, though this does force
posters to have e-mail addresses as IDs (not necessarily routable, but
ideally routable -- any authentication method that uses an
RFC822-style e-mail address as ID form should suffice for any
non-e-mail interface to the forum).

Tell me why a mailing list cannot be the foundation for such an ideal,
or how/why your ideal is so different from mine that a mailing list
cannot be the foundation for it.  I might be so blinded by my
allegiance to mailing lists that I can't see a better ideal without
your help.

I suppose you could argue that plain text is bad, and that mailing
lists encourage plain text, therefore they're bad -- but from my point
of view plain text (not ASCII, but Unicode), particularly fixed-width
fonts (at least for scripts where that makes any sense) is *ideal* as
it makes it much easier to format readable posts, particularly for
technical subjects.  But there's always MIME and HTML anyways, so that
an argument against plain text can't be a solid argument against
mailing lists as the foundation for the above ideal.

Nico
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

decalek
On 15.11.2011 22:35, Nico Williams wrote:
> my answer: a plethora of interfaces to the same data (posts/threads).

+1

> I'd like to see:
>
>   - RSS/Atom feeds
>   - web UIs ("web forum" UIs)
>   - stable HTTP APIs
>   - mobile apps specifically for fora (probably based on HTTP APIs)
>   - e-mail interface (mailing list)
>   - archives that can be downloaded, as well as searched online
>   - maybe even Usenet bridging
>

Me too. As simple first step - let's load the mail archives to
downloadable sqlite DB.
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

Nico Williams
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Alek Paunov <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Me too. As simple first step - let's load the mail archives to downloadable
> sqlite DB.

Why are the mail archives for sqlite-users not available for download?

As for loading them into a SQLite3 DB...  I once wrote a schema for
this, and it's straightforward enough that I could re-do it.  I
really, really want a mutt backend based on SQL...  I know about sup
and friends, but they don't use SQL :(

Nico
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Re: How about a proper forum rather than an e-mail list

J.M. Royalty
On 11/15/2011 5:02 PM, Nico Williams wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:08 PM, Alek Paunov<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Me too. As simple first step - let's load the mail archives to downloadable
>> sqlite DB.
> Why are the mail archives for sqlite-users not available for download?
>
They are avail here - (you have to log in)

http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/private/sqlite-users/
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