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List duplication

R Smith
Hi all,

Just a quick question, I've been getting duplicated mails via the forum.
It seems very random, roughly 1 in 4 mails I receive in duplicate. Has
anyone else been getting duplicate mails?

It's not a biggie, I just delete the duplicates. Also, it might be my
email settings or setup being the culprit - if anyone has an idea what I
might check, it will be most helpful - thanks.

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Re: List duplication

Simon Slavin-3

On 27 Feb 2015, at 7:38pm, R.Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just a quick question, I've been getting duplicated mails via the forum. It seems very random, roughly 1 in 4 mails I receive in duplicate. Has anyone else been getting duplicate mails?

Not me.

Check back on the message-id and received headers of two duplicates.  Do they have different message-id headers ?

Simon.
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Re: List duplication

Tony Papadimitriou
In reply to this post by R Smith
Me too, for about the last 7-10 days or so!

-----Original Message-----
From: R.Smith
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 9:38 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [sqlite] List duplication

Hi all,

Just a quick question, I've been getting duplicated mails via the forum.
It seems very random, roughly 1 in 4 mails I receive in duplicate. Has
anyone else been getting duplicate mails?

It's not a biggie, I just delete the duplicates. Also, it might be my
email settings or setup being the culprit - if anyone has an idea what I
might check, it will be most helpful - thanks.

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[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
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Re: List duplication

Stephen Chrzanowski
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
I've not been having problems with duplicates, but I have been randomly
having commoners end up in my spam bucket for one reason or another over
the last 48 hours or so.  I've specifically set a filter in GMail that if
anything comes in for this mailing list to NOT go to spam, yet....

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 27 Feb 2015, at 7:38pm, R.Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Just a quick question, I've been getting duplicated mails via the forum.
> It seems very random, roughly 1 in 4 mails I receive in duplicate. Has
> anyone else been getting duplicate mails?
>
> Not me.
>
> Check back on the message-id and received headers of two duplicates.  Do
> they have different message-id headers ?
>
> Simon.
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: List duplication

Peter Aronson-3
In reply to this post by R Smith
I've seen it too.  All of the duplicate messages appear to have been sent to both [hidden email] and [hidden email] or to both sqlite-usersmailinglists.sqlite.org and [hidden email].

Peter

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 2/27/15, R.Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

 Subject: [sqlite] List duplication
 To: [hidden email]
 Date: Friday, February 27, 2015, 12:38 PM
 
 Hi all,
 
 Just a quick question, I've been getting duplicated mails
 via the forum.
 It seems very random, roughly 1 in 4 mails I receive in
 duplicate. Has
 anyone else been getting duplicate mails?
 
 It's not a biggie, I just delete the duplicates. Also, it
 might be my
 email settings or setup being the culprit - if anyone has an
 idea what I
 might check, it will be most helpful - thanks.
 
 _______________________________________________
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 [hidden email]
 http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
 
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Re: List duplication

R Smith

On 2015-02-27 10:09 PM, Peter Aronson wrote:
> I've seen it too.  All of the duplicate messages appear to have been sent to both [hidden email] and [hidden email] or to both sqlite-usersmailinglists.sqlite.org and [hidden email].

Ah, I think this is the answer probably. Maybe people hitting the "reply
to all" or such and it copies across lists.  Simon is possibly not
subscribed to both, hence not getting duplicates.

Might this be fixed with a reply-to on list headers adjustment?


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Re: List duplication

Simon Slavin-3

On 27 Feb 2015, at 10:04pm, R.Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ah, I think this is the answer probably. Maybe people hitting the "reply to all" or such and it copies across lists.  Simon is possibly not subscribed to both, hence not getting duplicates.

I confirm that I am not subscribed to the -dev list.

Can you tell me whether duplicate messages have the same or different message-id headers ?  Email clients are meant to identify messages with the same message-id as the same message.  But sometimes mailing lists break and put different IDs on the same message sent through different routes.

Simon.
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Re: List duplication

R Smith


On 2015-02-28 12:47 AM, Simon Slavin wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2015, at 10:04pm, R.Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Ah, I think this is the answer probably. Maybe people hitting the "reply to all" or such and it copies across lists.  Simon is possibly not subscribed to both, hence not getting duplicates.
> I confirm that I am not subscribed to the -dev list.
>
> Can you tell me whether duplicate messages have the same or different message-id headers ?  Email clients are meant to identify messages with the same message-id as the same message.  But sometimes mailing lists break and put different IDs on the same message sent through different routes.

Indeed I did heed your advice earlier regarding this, and will check -
it's just that I've already deleted all duplicated messages (due to
OCD), so as soon as the next duplications arrive, I will confirm the IDs
and be sure to report back.
Thanks!
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Re: List duplication

Darren Duncan
In reply to this post by Peter Aronson-3
I'm seeing a lot of message duplication too, but the ones I see are due to
someone putting the list address twice as a recipient.

For example a bunch of the "PhD student" messages say "To"
[hidden email] plus "Cc" [hidden email] .

But both of those are aliases for the same list.

Whoever is doing this, sending your messages to both, please stop, just send to
one, and then people would get one copy.

-- Darren Duncan

On 2015-02-27 12:09 PM, Peter Aronson wrote:

> I've seen it too.  All of the duplicate messages appear to have been sent to both [hidden email] and [hidden email] or to both sqlite-usersmailinglists.sqlite.org and [hidden email].
>
> Peter
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 2/27/15, R.Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>   Subject: [sqlite] List duplication
>   To: [hidden email]
>   Date: Friday, February 27, 2015, 12:38 PM
>
>   Hi all,
>
>   Just a quick question, I've been getting duplicated mails
>   via the forum.
>   It seems very random, roughly 1 in 4 mails I receive in
>   duplicate. Has
>   anyone else been getting duplicate mails?
>
>   It's not a biggie, I just delete the duplicates. Also, it
>   might be my
>   email settings or setup being the culprit - if anyone has an
>   idea what I
>   might check, it will be most helpful - thanks.

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Re: List duplication

R Smith
On 2015-02-28 05:02 AM, Darren Duncan wrote:

> I'm seeing a lot of message duplication too, but the ones I see are
> due to someone putting the list address twice as a recipient.
>
> For example a bunch of the "PhD student" messages say "To"
> [hidden email] plus "Cc" [hidden email] .
>
> But both of those are aliases for the same list.
>
> Whoever is doing this, sending your messages to both, please stop,
> just send to one, and then people would get one copy.

I don't think it is someone specific, I've seen these from many people -
I think it has to do with the way the reply-to field is interpreted
and/or the way mail clients interpret it when you hit the "Reply" or
"Reply-to-List" buttons.  I'm using an up-to-date Mozilla Thunderbird
client which seems to avoid the issue (unless I am not seeing my own
duplicates).

I find it hard to imagine that suddenly many list users changed the way
they respond to forum emails. The culprit is more likely a change in
some underlying system set-up.

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Re: List duplication

Tim Streater-3
In reply to this post by R Smith
On 27 Feb 2015 at 22:47, Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 27 Feb 2015, at 10:04pm, R.Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Ah, I think this is the answer probably. Maybe people hitting the "reply to
>> all" or such and it copies across lists.  Simon is possibly not subscribed to
>> both, hence not getting duplicates.
>
> I confirm that I am not subscribed to the -dev list.

I assert that it's nothing to do with the -dev list.

The dupes I've had here are because people are sending to [hidden email] and also to [hidden email].

--
Cheers  --  Tim

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Re: List duplication

Darren Duncan
In reply to this post by R Smith
On 2015-02-28 3:15 AM, R.Smith wrote:

> On 2015-02-28 05:02 AM, Darren Duncan wrote:
>> I'm seeing a lot of message duplication too, but the ones I see are due to
>> someone putting the list address twice as a recipient.
>>
>> For example a bunch of the "PhD student" messages say "To"
>> [hidden email] plus "Cc" [hidden email] .
>>
>> But both of those are aliases for the same list.
>>
>> Whoever is doing this, sending your messages to both, please stop, just send
>> to one, and then people would get one copy.
>
> I don't think it is someone specific, I've seen these from many people - I think
> it has to do with the way the reply-to field is interpreted and/or the way mail
> clients interpret it when you hit the "Reply" or "Reply-to-List" buttons.  I'm
> using an up-to-date Mozilla Thunderbird client which seems to avoid the issue
> (unless I am not seeing my own duplicates).
>
> I find it hard to imagine that suddenly many list users changed the way they
> respond to forum emails. The culprit is more likely a change in some underlying
> system set-up.

My comment on "whoever" is meant to be plural.

I think as a general principle that whenever people reply to list messages, they
look at the headers of the message they are writing and make sure the list
doesn't appear twice in the recipients field.

If the result of hitting reply or reply-all to some message in a client puts the
same recipient in the address bar twice, then the users should remove the extra
copies, that's what I do, it can be simple as that.

-- Darren Duncan

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Re: List duplication

R Smith
In reply to this post by R Smith
Ok, I've found the source of the list duplications.

Some emails (Such as the one by J.K. Lowden 2-March-2015 re: Characters
corrupt after importing...) contains a "Reply-To" field in the header
with both list addresses which must have sneaked in there due to some
automatic list feature.  (By "Both" I mean the old:
[hidden email] and the new: [hidden email])

I usually use the "Reply to List" button (Thunderbird) which replies
correctly, but if you only hit the "Reply to" button then BOTH addresses
are inserted in the "To:" field of the message to be sent - which of
course results in the duplication (Such as the duplicated message from
H. Gunter in reply to the message above).

An astute eye might catch this and remove a reference, but mostly nobody
cares to study the things that should work automatically - and they
shouldn't need to.

May I ask the list admin to see if any mention of the old list email
address in automatic message body generated text still lingers and can
be gotten rid of?

Thank you kindly!
Ryan



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Re: List duplication

David Woodhouse
In reply to this post by Darren Duncan
On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 14:10 -0800, Darren Duncan wrote:

>
> My comment on "whoever" is meant to be plural.
>
> I think as a general principle that whenever people reply to list messages, they
> look at the headers of the message they are writing and make sure the list
> doesn't appear twice in the recipients field.
>
> If the result of hitting reply or reply-all to some message in a client puts the
> same recipient in the address bar twice, then the users should remove the extra
> copies, that's what I do, it can be simple as that.
That's ironic.

The problem here is the Reply-To: setting on the mailing list.

If a user hits 'Reply' on a message, that should always go to the sender
of the message they're looking at.

If a user hits 'Reply to All' on a message, *that* should go to
everyone.

This list has a 'Reply-To' header which hijacks the private reply so
that it goes to the list... which a lot of list admins do precisely
because they *don't* want their users to have to think at all, because
they assume their users are so dim that they can't even manage to
correctly choose between the private 'Reply' button and the public
'Reply All' button that's *right* next to it.

(To be fair, there's often a lot of truth in that assumption, but it's
largely a self-fulfilling prophecy because although things *should* be
simple, a lot of people are confused by what is *not* inconsistent
behaviour of the private "Reply" button which ought to *always* give a
private reply.... and is now just confusing because of this misguided
attempt to make things simpler.)

So what happens here is people do the right thing and hit 'Reply All' to
reply publicly, and that misguided Reply-To: header is corrupting the
behaviour so that their reply goes *both* to the added Reply-To: address
'[hidden email]' *and* to the address which was in
the To: or Cc: of the previous message, '[hidden email]'.

So the only reason people now have to pay careful attention to the
recipients in their reply is because the list "helpfully" hacks
things... ostensibly so that they *don't* have to pay attention to what
they're doing. Nice :)

--
dwmw2


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Re: List duplication

David Woodhouse
In reply to this post by R Smith
On Mon, 2015-03-02 at 12:45 +0200, R.Smith wrote:
> Ok, I've found the source of the list duplications.
>
> Some emails (Such as the one by J.K. Lowden 2-March-2015 re: Characters
> corrupt after importing...) contains a "Reply-To" field in the header
> with both list addresses which must have sneaked in there due to some
> automatic list feature.  (By "Both" I mean the old:
> [hidden email] and the new: [hidden email])

You don't need that, do you? Just hitting Reply All to a message which
is:
 To: [hidden email]
 Reply-To: [hidden email]

would generate a message which ends up going to both, wouldn't it?

(I can't easily test; I've configured my mailer to ignore abusive
Reply-To: headers from mailing lists where it can detect them, so my
Reply and Reply All buttons actually do what I *ask* them to.)

But looking at the first message in the 'PhD Student' thread, it appears
just as in my example above. And John KcKown's response of 26 Feb 2015
07:16:47 -0600 is indeed to both addresses, as if he'd done the correct
thing and simply hit 'Reply All'.

> I usually use the "Reply to List" button (Thunderbird) which replies
> correctly,

Note that that is considered extremely anti-social in many cases,
because it cuts some people out of discussions entirely. See
http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html for a full discussion.

--
dwmw2


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Re: List duplication

drgrep
For what it is worth, the move to mailinglists.sqlite.org is a result of
the Mailman web interface having to be hosted under the following two
constraints:

1. It must be on port 80
2. It cannot be on sqlite.org port 80

I explained this reasoning in a previous email. The short version is
because we are using two web servers on the VM that hosts both the
sqlite.org website and fossil repos (althttpd) and the Mailman web
interface (Apache). We previously did this on a single IP where mailman was
on port 8080. However, we had a significant number of complaints from
people who could not reach the Mailman web interface via sqlite.org:8080
due to firewall restrictions in their respective locations. So we did what
we could to move it to port 80.

So to satisfy these two constraints, mailinglists.sqlite.org was born.
Unless somebody else knows better, Mailman does not allow one to use two
domains for a given list. Either something will screw up with the mail
routing or in the web interface if you try to use more than one. You have
to pick one domain and stick with it. Thus I could not continue to support
both the previous sqlite.org (:8080) domain and the new
mailinglists.sqlite.org (:80) for the users list. So I made the move from
the one to the other.

Regarding the reply-to policy. I honestly don't remember the reasoning
behind it. I know there was a big long discussion about it in the past
(search the list) and after the dust settled we chose the current policy
and that is the way it is configured today.  I do believe the policy was a
result of the consensus of the mailing list users. I can say that we do
everything we can to make most of the people happy most of the time. That
is the very reason we made this change to begin with -- to make it possible
for everyone to use the list. It would have been easier to just keep things
the same and let the people who can't reach port 8080 deal with it, but we
did what we had to to make it accessible for them as well. There are a lot
of variables in the system and we juggle them as best we can.

Any feedback or suggestions are always welcome.


On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:18 AM, David Woodhouse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 2015-03-02 at 12:45 +0200, R.Smith wrote:
> > Ok, I've found the source of the list duplications.
> >
> > Some emails (Such as the one by J.K. Lowden 2-March-2015 re: Characters
> > corrupt after importing...) contains a "Reply-To" field in the header
> > with both list addresses which must have sneaked in there due to some
> > automatic list feature.  (By "Both" I mean the old:
> > [hidden email] and the new:
> [hidden email])
>
> You don't need that, do you? Just hitting Reply All to a message which
> is:
>  To: [hidden email]
>  Reply-To: [hidden email]
>
> would generate a message which ends up going to both, wouldn't it?
>
> (I can't easily test; I've configured my mailer to ignore abusive
> Reply-To: headers from mailing lists where it can detect them, so my
> Reply and Reply All buttons actually do what I *ask* them to.)
>
> But looking at the first message in the 'PhD Student' thread, it appears
> just as in my example above. And John KcKown's response of 26 Feb 2015
> 07:16:47 -0600 is indeed to both addresses, as if he'd done the correct
> thing and simply hit 'Reply All'.
>
> > I usually use the "Reply to List" button (Thunderbird) which replies
> > correctly,
>
> Note that that is considered extremely anti-social in many cases,
> because it cuts some people out of discussions entirely. See
> http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html for a full discussion.
>
> --
> dwmw2
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
>


--
Mike
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Re: List duplication

Darren Duncan
I think that what needs to be done is for each [hidden email] to return an
error/undeliverable message if someone sends a message to it, citing that all
messages must be explicitly sent to the corresponding
[hidden email].  That should handily solve the problem. -- Darren
Duncan

On 2015-03-02 10:37 AM, Mike Owens wrote:

> For what it is worth, the move to mailinglists.sqlite.org is a result of
> the Mailman web interface having to be hosted under the following two
> constraints:
>
> 1. It must be on port 80
> 2. It cannot be on sqlite.org port 80
>
> I explained this reasoning in a previous email. The short version is
> because we are using two web servers on the VM that hosts both the
> sqlite.org website and fossil repos (althttpd) and the Mailman web
> interface (Apache). We previously did this on a single IP where mailman was
> on port 8080. However, we had a significant number of complaints from
> people who could not reach the Mailman web interface via sqlite.org:8080
> due to firewall restrictions in their respective locations. So we did what
> we could to move it to port 80.
>
> So to satisfy these two constraints, mailinglists.sqlite.org was born.
> Unless somebody else knows better, Mailman does not allow one to use two
> domains for a given list. Either something will screw up with the mail
> routing or in the web interface if you try to use more than one. You have
> to pick one domain and stick with it. Thus I could not continue to support
> both the previous sqlite.org (:8080) domain and the new
> mailinglists.sqlite.org (:80) for the users list. So I made the move from
> the one to the other.
>
> Regarding the reply-to policy. I honestly don't remember the reasoning
> behind it. I know there was a big long discussion about it in the past
> (search the list) and after the dust settled we chose the current policy
> and that is the way it is configured today.  I do believe the policy was a
> result of the consensus of the mailing list users. I can say that we do
> everything we can to make most of the people happy most of the time. That
> is the very reason we made this change to begin with -- to make it possible
> for everyone to use the list. It would have been easier to just keep things
> the same and let the people who can't reach port 8080 deal with it, but we
> did what we had to to make it accessible for them as well. There are a lot
> of variables in the system and we juggle them as best we can.
>
> Any feedback or suggestions are always welcome.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:18 AM, David Woodhouse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2015-03-02 at 12:45 +0200, R.Smith wrote:
>>> Ok, I've found the source of the list duplications.
>>>
>>> Some emails (Such as the one by J.K. Lowden 2-March-2015 re: Characters
>>> corrupt after importing...) contains a "Reply-To" field in the header
>>> with both list addresses which must have sneaked in there due to some
>>> automatic list feature.  (By "Both" I mean the old:
>>> [hidden email] and the new:
>> [hidden email])
>>
>> You don't need that, do you? Just hitting Reply All to a message which
>> is:
>>   To: [hidden email]
>>   Reply-To: [hidden email]
>>
>> would generate a message which ends up going to both, wouldn't it?
>>
>> (I can't easily test; I've configured my mailer to ignore abusive
>> Reply-To: headers from mailing lists where it can detect them, so my
>> Reply and Reply All buttons actually do what I *ask* them to.)
>>
>> But looking at the first message in the 'PhD Student' thread, it appears
>> just as in my example above. And John KcKown's response of 26 Feb 2015
>> 07:16:47 -0600 is indeed to both addresses, as if he'd done the correct
>> thing and simply hit 'Reply All'.
>>
>>> I usually use the "Reply to List" button (Thunderbird) which replies
>>> correctly,
>>
>> Note that that is considered extremely anti-social in many cases,
>> because it cuts some people out of discussions entirely. See
>> http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html for a full discussion.
>>
>> --
>> dwmw2

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Re: List duplication

R Smith


On 2015-03-03 12:42 AM, Darren Duncan wrote:
> I think that what needs to be done is for each [hidden email] to
> return an error/undeliverable message if someone sends a message to
> it, citing that all messages must be explicitly sent to the
> corresponding [hidden email].  That should handily solve
> the problem. -- Darren Duncan

I see where you are coming from, but if the Reply-To field contains 2
email addresses and then the server penalizes you for using one of them,
that might go down in history as the most-evil mailing-list quirk of all
time.

As to Mike's post - the dual mailing-list's reason for being is very
clear and welcomed, no qualms there, just the Reply-to duplication that
is quirky. I read all forum emails, I do not recall any multi-person
decision to add this dual Reply-To thing, however memory is not my
strength so I'm happy with the explanation - but I am wondering - is
this done and dusted? Is there any chance we might re-open the
discussion now that real-World scenarios have set in?

It's an extremely minor irritation and will cause a few extra
mail-traffic items at its worst - the only real casualty being my OCD,
but I can't help thinking there is not a single good reason to keep the
situation (unless someone can show the opposite).


>
> On 2015-03-02 10:37 AM, Mike Owens wrote:
>> For what it is worth, the move to mailinglists.sqlite.org is a result of
>> the Mailman web interface having to be hosted under the following two
>> constraints:
>>
>> 1. It must be on port 80
>> 2. It cannot be on sqlite.org port 80
>>
>> I explained this reasoning in a previous email. The short version is
>> because we are using two web servers on the VM that hosts both the
>> sqlite.org website and fossil repos (althttpd) and the Mailman web
>> interface (Apache). We previously did this on a single IP where
>> mailman was
>> on port 8080. However, we had a significant number of complaints from
>> people who could not reach the Mailman web interface via sqlite.org:8080
>> due to firewall restrictions in their respective locations. So we did
>> what
>> we could to move it to port 80.
>>
>> So to satisfy these two constraints, mailinglists.sqlite.org was born.
>> Unless somebody else knows better, Mailman does not allow one to use two
>> domains for a given list. Either something will screw up with the mail
>> routing or in the web interface if you try to use more than one. You
>> have
>> to pick one domain and stick with it. Thus I could not continue to
>> support
>> both the previous sqlite.org (:8080) domain and the new
>> mailinglists.sqlite.org (:80) for the users list. So I made the move
>> from
>> the one to the other.
>>
>> Regarding the reply-to policy. I honestly don't remember the reasoning
>> behind it. I know there was a big long discussion about it in the past
>> (search the list) and after the dust settled we chose the current policy
>> and that is the way it is configured today.  I do believe the policy
>> was a
>> result of the consensus of the mailing list users. I can say that we do
>> everything we can to make most of the people happy most of the time.
>> That
>> is the very reason we made this change to begin with -- to make it
>> possible
>> for everyone to use the list. It would have been easier to just keep
>> things
>> the same and let the people who can't reach port 8080 deal with it,
>> but we
>> did what we had to to make it accessible for them as well. There are
>> a lot
>> of variables in the system and we juggle them as best we can.
>>
>> Any feedback or suggestions are always welcome.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:18 AM, David Woodhouse <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 2015-03-02 at 12:45 +0200, R.Smith wrote:
>>>> Ok, I've found the source of the list duplications.
>>>>
>>>> Some emails (Such as the one by J.K. Lowden 2-March-2015 re:
>>>> Characters
>>>> corrupt after importing...) contains a "Reply-To" field in the header
>>>> with both list addresses which must have sneaked in there due to some
>>>> automatic list feature.  (By "Both" I mean the old:
>>>> [hidden email] and the new:
>>> [hidden email])
>>>
>>> You don't need that, do you? Just hitting Reply All to a message which
>>> is:
>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>   Reply-To: [hidden email]
>>>
>>> would generate a message which ends up going to both, wouldn't it?
>>>
>>> (I can't easily test; I've configured my mailer to ignore abusive
>>> Reply-To: headers from mailing lists where it can detect them, so my
>>> Reply and Reply All buttons actually do what I *ask* them to.)
>>>
>>> But looking at the first message in the 'PhD Student' thread, it
>>> appears
>>> just as in my example above. And John KcKown's response of 26 Feb 2015
>>> 07:16:47 -0600 is indeed to both addresses, as if he'd done the correct
>>> thing and simply hit 'Reply All'.
>>>
>>>> I usually use the "Reply to List" button (Thunderbird) which replies
>>>> correctly,
>>>
>>> Note that that is considered extremely anti-social in many cases,
>>> because it cuts some people out of discussions entirely. See
>>> http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html for a full discussion.
>>>
>>> --
>>> dwmw2
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users

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Re: List duplication

drgrep
For clarity, here is the currently policy for Reply-to as it is set in
Mailman:


   - Should any existing Reply-To: header found in the original message be
   stripped? If so, this will be done regardless of whether an explict
   Reply-To: header is added by Mailman or not. : *NO*
   - Where are replies to list messages directed? *This list*
   - Explicit Reply-To: header : *None*


On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:04 PM, R.Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 2015-03-03 12:42 AM, Darren Duncan wrote:
>
>> I think that what needs to be done is for each [hidden email] to return
>> an error/undeliverable message if someone sends a message to it, citing
>> that all messages must be explicitly sent to the corresponding
>> [hidden email].  That should handily solve the problem. --
>> Darren Duncan
>>
>
> I see where you are coming from, but if the Reply-To field contains 2
> email addresses and then the server penalizes you for using one of them,
> that might go down in history as the most-evil mailing-list quirk of all
> time.
>
> As to Mike's post - the dual mailing-list's reason for being is very clear
> and welcomed, no qualms there, just the Reply-to duplication that is
> quirky. I read all forum emails, I do not recall any multi-person decision
> to add this dual Reply-To thing, however memory is not my strength so I'm
> happy with the explanation - but I am wondering - is this done and dusted?
> Is there any chance we might re-open the discussion now that real-World
> scenarios have set in?
>
> It's an extremely minor irritation and will cause a few extra mail-traffic
> items at its worst - the only real casualty being my OCD, but I can't help
> thinking there is not a single good reason to keep the situation (unless
> someone can show the opposite).
>
>
>
>
>> On 2015-03-02 10:37 AM, Mike Owens wrote:
>>
>>> For what it is worth, the move to mailinglists.sqlite.org is a result of
>>> the Mailman web interface having to be hosted under the following two
>>> constraints:
>>>
>>> 1. It must be on port 80
>>> 2. It cannot be on sqlite.org port 80
>>>
>>> I explained this reasoning in a previous email. The short version is
>>> because we are using two web servers on the VM that hosts both the
>>> sqlite.org website and fossil repos (althttpd) and the Mailman web
>>> interface (Apache). We previously did this on a single IP where mailman
>>> was
>>> on port 8080. However, we had a significant number of complaints from
>>> people who could not reach the Mailman web interface via sqlite.org:8080
>>> due to firewall restrictions in their respective locations. So we did
>>> what
>>> we could to move it to port 80.
>>>
>>> So to satisfy these two constraints, mailinglists.sqlite.org was born.
>>> Unless somebody else knows better, Mailman does not allow one to use two
>>> domains for a given list. Either something will screw up with the mail
>>> routing or in the web interface if you try to use more than one. You have
>>> to pick one domain and stick with it. Thus I could not continue to
>>> support
>>> both the previous sqlite.org (:8080) domain and the new
>>> mailinglists.sqlite.org (:80) for the users list. So I made the move
>>> from
>>> the one to the other.
>>>
>>> Regarding the reply-to policy. I honestly don't remember the reasoning
>>> behind it. I know there was a big long discussion about it in the past
>>> (search the list) and after the dust settled we chose the current policy
>>> and that is the way it is configured today.  I do believe the policy was
>>> a
>>> result of the consensus of the mailing list users. I can say that we do
>>> everything we can to make most of the people happy most of the time. That
>>> is the very reason we made this change to begin with -- to make it
>>> possible
>>> for everyone to use the list. It would have been easier to just keep
>>> things
>>> the same and let the people who can't reach port 8080 deal with it, but
>>> we
>>> did what we had to to make it accessible for them as well. There are a
>>> lot
>>> of variables in the system and we juggle them as best we can.
>>>
>>> Any feedback or suggestions are always welcome.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:18 AM, David Woodhouse <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Mon, 2015-03-02 at 12:45 +0200, R.Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I've found the source of the list duplications.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some emails (Such as the one by J.K. Lowden 2-March-2015 re: Characters
>>>>> corrupt after importing...) contains a "Reply-To" field in the header
>>>>> with both list addresses which must have sneaked in there due to some
>>>>> automatic list feature.  (By "Both" I mean the old:
>>>>> [hidden email] and the new:
>>>>>
>>>> [hidden email])
>>>>
>>>> You don't need that, do you? Just hitting Reply All to a message which
>>>> is:
>>>>   To: [hidden email]
>>>>   Reply-To: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> would generate a message which ends up going to both, wouldn't it?
>>>>
>>>> (I can't easily test; I've configured my mailer to ignore abusive
>>>> Reply-To: headers from mailing lists where it can detect them, so my
>>>> Reply and Reply All buttons actually do what I *ask* them to.)
>>>>
>>>> But looking at the first message in the 'PhD Student' thread, it appears
>>>> just as in my example above. And John KcKown's response of 26 Feb 2015
>>>> 07:16:47 -0600 is indeed to both addresses, as if he'd done the correct
>>>> thing and simply hit 'Reply All'.
>>>>
>>>>  I usually use the "Reply to List" button (Thunderbird) which replies
>>>>> correctly,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that that is considered extremely anti-social in many cases,
>>>> because it cuts some people out of discussions entirely. See
>>>> http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html for a full discussion.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> dwmw2
>>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sqlite-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>



--
Mike
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Re: List duplication

Darren Duncan
In reply to this post by R Smith
On 2015-03-02 3:04 PM, R.Smith wrote:

> On 2015-03-03 12:42 AM, Darren Duncan wrote:
>> I think that what needs to be done is for each [hidden email] to return an
>> error/undeliverable message if someone sends a message to it, citing that all
>> messages must be explicitly sent to the corresponding
>> [hidden email].  That should handily solve the problem. -- Darren
>> Duncan
>
> I see where you are coming from, but if the Reply-To field contains 2 email
> addresses and then the server penalizes you for using one of them, that might go
> down in history as the most-evil mailing-list quirk of all time.

As near as I can tell, the Reply-To header from this list only contains
[hidden email] and does not also contain
[hidden email] so therefore I don't see the problem you're stating.
But if it sometimes does so, then the list manager needs to ensure that
[hidden email] is never in the Reply-To header of messages from the
list. -- Darren Duncan

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