Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

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Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Dominique Devienne
Just FYI. Not sure if something changed on the mailer's settings.
Possibly/likely linked to GMail changing it's SPAM heuristics I guess. --DD
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Paul Sanderson
Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
email as 'not spam'

Paul
www.sandersonforensics.com
skype: r3scue193
twitter: @sandersonforens
Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-Toolkit
-Forensic Toolkit for SQLite
email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence

On 21 November 2017 at 10:35, Dominique Devienne <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Just FYI. Not sure if something changed on the mailer's settings.
> Possibly/likely linked to GMail changing it's SPAM heuristics I guess. --DD
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Richard Hipp-3
On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
> email as 'not spam'

I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.

I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Stephen Chrzanowski
I know it can't be expected of users, but, I've setup GMail to whitelist
anything coming from the mail list.  GMail tells me that the message should
have gone to spam, but because of a rule, yadda yadda.


On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of
> SQLite
> > email as 'not spam'
>
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Simon Slavin-3
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3


On 21 Nov 2017, at 2:30pm, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

If we’re to end up with a chat-based system then I’d prefer Discord.

I can’t recommend a web-based forum system right now.  I’ve seen a lot of them and don’t find any superior to any other.  Or, in fact, any good at all.

Simon.

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Dominique Devienne
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of
> SQLite
> > email as 'not spam'
>
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>

I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>

After re-inventing database and source-control, forum software next? :)
I have no doubt it would be lean, fast, SQLite-based, in C (and/or TCL).
Fossile's web-ui is almost like a forum already in fact.

But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would be as
convenient.

I've used a local install of https://www.discourse.org/ at work, and it's
nice,
with some similarities to StackOverflow for editing, no surprise given Jeff
Atwood's involvement. OpenSource. But I suspect it's not "lite" enough for
you Richard :) Plus it's probably not SQLite based, which is just silly!

Joking apart, I can live with the occasional GMail mischaracterization of
SPAM.
Glad to hear it's not related to a recent MailMan config change. Case
closed, --DD
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Peter da Silva
On 11/21/17, 8:52 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Dominique Devienne" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
> After re-inventing database and source-control, forum software next? :) I have no doubt it would be lean, fast, SQLite-based, in C (and/or TCL).

Plus XMPP and NNTP/NNRPD interfaces, and a PERFECT bidirectional email gateway that maintains BOTH kinds of threading.
 

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Stephen Chrzanowski
In reply to this post by Dominique Devienne
I love the email methodology, and I'd honestly be sad to see it go.  But if
GMail is causing the mischaracterization of the mail, maybe just a note on
the sqlite.org home page that directs people on how to whitelist the
mailing list?

I'm indifferent to the forum idea, but, so long the forum software will
give me notifications of ALL entries, with the full content of the post.
That way, I can decide if I want to jump on the forum and contribute, or
ask.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Dominique Devienne <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would be as
> convenient.
>
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

wmertens
Discourse has a mailing-list mode you can enable, which will send you all
posts (I presume, I never tried it)

The default setup sends you interesting new topics at an interval of your
choosing.

What I like very much about Discourse:

   - great engagement
   - easy following of only those topics that interest you
   - great way to have a live archive of posts
   - no spam. The JS hoops spammers have to jump through are a great
   deterrent so far.

I must say that I can't really remember a google search resulting in a post
on a Discourse forum. I wonder if it has bad googlability or if other
sources are deemed better by Google, or if Discourse is simply not very
popular.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 4:16 PM Stephen Chrzanowski <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I love the email methodology, and I'd honestly be sad to see it go.  But if
> GMail is causing the mischaracterization of the mail, maybe just a note on
> the sqlite.org home page that directs people on how to whitelist the
> mailing list?
>
> I'm indifferent to the forum idea, but, so long the forum software will
> give me notifications of ALL entries, with the full content of the post.
> That way, I can decide if I want to jump on the forum and contribute, or
> ask.
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Dominique Devienne <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would be as
> > convenient.
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

J. King-3
In reply to this post by Stephen Chrzanowski
I greatly prefer e-mail, too. It's a shame mailing lists run afoul of SPF and usually DKIM, and doubly so that ARC is unlikely to be of much help.

I abhor Discourse, so it's depressing for me that it's so popular. Alas...

On November 21, 2017 10:16:24 AM EST, Stephen Chrzanowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I love the email methodology, and I'd honestly be sad to see it go.
>But if
>GMail is causing the mischaracterization of the mail, maybe just a note
>on
>the sqlite.org home page that directs people on how to whitelist the
>mailing list?
>
>I'm indifferent to the forum idea, but, so long the forum software will
>give me notifications of ALL entries, with the full content of the
>post.
>That way, I can decide if I want to jump on the forum and contribute,
>or
>ask.
>
>On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Dominique Devienne
><[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would be
>as
>> convenient.
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>sqlite-users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users

--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Keith Medcalf
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3

In my opinion it is the beginning of the end of crappy freemail providers and their overzealous spam filtering.  And it is about time.  

If you run an RFC complaint MTA then there is really very little problem with SPAM at all -- I have many connections per second rejected for RFC non-compliance -- and get maybe 3 SPAM messages per day, all of which originate from the crappy Johhny-cum-lately freemail systems.  It is just that the Johhny-cum-lately's (freemail, telco's, cableco's) have no idea how to run RFC compliant Internet Hosts and MTA's that have issues.  Plus those that insist on being RFC non-compliant so they can communicate with the Johhny-cum-lately non-RFC compliant hosts and MTA's.  

A far better approach is to remain RFC compliant and if someone you want to communicate with insists on not being an RFC compliant Internet host and MTA, then tell them to bugger off and use old fashioned snail-mail that does not require a properly configured host connected to the Internet.

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Hipp
>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 07:31
>To: SQLite mailing list
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>
>On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of
>SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>
>I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
>Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
>beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
>I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
>Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>--
>D. Richard Hipp
>[hidden email]
>_______________________________________________
>sqlite-users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users



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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Keith Medcalf
In reply to this post by wmertens

If by JS you mean JavaScript, then this is a non-starter.  Many people (myself included) do not permit remote code to be executed on our computers.


---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wout Mertens
>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 08:26
>To: SQLite mailing list
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>
>Discourse has a mailing-list mode you can enable, which will send you
>all
>posts (I presume, I never tried it)
>
>The default setup sends you interesting new topics at an interval of
>your
>choosing.
>
>What I like very much about Discourse:
>
>   - great engagement
>   - easy following of only those topics that interest you
>   - great way to have a live archive of posts
>   - no spam. The JS hoops spammers have to jump through are a great
>   deterrent so far.
>
>I must say that I can't really remember a google search resulting in
>a post
>on a Discourse forum. I wonder if it has bad googlability or if other
>sources are deemed better by Google, or if Discourse is simply not
>very
>popular.
>
>On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 4:16 PM Stephen Chrzanowski
><[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>> I love the email methodology, and I'd honestly be sad to see it go.
>But if
>> GMail is causing the mischaracterization of the mail, maybe just a
>note on
>> the sqlite.org home page that directs people on how to whitelist
>the
>> mailing list?
>>
>> I'm indifferent to the forum idea, but, so long the forum software
>will
>> give me notifications of ALL entries, with the full content of the
>post.
>> That way, I can decide if I want to jump on the forum and
>contribute, or
>> ask.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Dominique Devienne
><[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > But many people still prefer email. I doubt something else would
>be as
>> > convenient.
>> >
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> sqlite-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-
>users
>>
>_______________________________________________
>sqlite-users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users



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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Pierpaolo BERNARDI-2
In reply to this post by Dominique Devienne


Il giorno 21 novembre 2017, alle ore 15:30, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

>On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
>Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
>beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
>Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

I suggest that people check their spam folder daily. It takes a few seconds to manually approve the few false positives.

Any web based thing otoh is a crawling horror which will destroy any usefulness in the whole thing. And they require an active connection which is not always available.

IMHO

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Peter da Silva
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
On 11/21/17, 9:59 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Keith Medcalf" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
> If you run an RFC complaint MTA then there is really very little problem with SPAM at all -- I have many connections per second rejected for RFC non-compliance -- and get maybe 3 SPAM messages per day, all of which originate from the crappy Johhny-cum-lately freemail systems

So. taronga.com is a high profile spam target thanks to my using it for Usenet posts for years. Like, at one point in the ‘90s I got so much spam that it blew out my bandwidth limit and I got charged an overage, just for receiving handshakes and dropping spam on the ground.

I tried being aggressively OCD about RFC compliance and found I was missing mail I actually needed. Like, from lawyers and similar stuff that had real world consequences.

So I went back to using a combination of multiple layers of filters and a greylist front end. Oh, and blocking all of China and Argentina.

Still get a lot of spam that Apple Mail’s Bayesian filter takes care of. Mostly.

Still too many false positives. I switched to gmail for mail I actually really needed to get. I was spending too much lifetime dealing with mail issues.

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ-2
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]

Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and convenient. I don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk activity here is very practical or appealing.

--
Bill Drago
Staff Engineer
L3 Narda-MITEQ
435 Moreland Road
Hauppauge, NY 11788
631-272-5947 / [hidden email]
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain material that is proprietary, confidential, privileged or otherwise legally protected or restricted under applicable government laws. Any review, disclosure, distributing or other use without expressed permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies without reading, printing, or saving.

Beginning April 1, 2018, L3 Technologies, Inc. will discontinue the use of all @L-3Com.com email addresses. To ensure delivery of your messages to this recipient, please update your records to use [hidden email].
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Keith Medcalf
In reply to this post by Peter da Silva




---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.


On Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 09:06, Peter Da Silva <[hidden email]> wrote:

>On 11/21/17, 9:59 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Keith Medcalf"
><[hidden email] on behalf of
>[hidden email]> wrote:

>> If you run an RFC complaint MTA then there is really very little
>problem with SPAM at all -- I have many connections per second
>rejected for RFC non-compliance -- and get maybe 3 SPAM messages per
>day, all of which originate from the crappy Johhny-cum-lately
>freemail systems

>So. taronga.com is a high profile spam target thanks to my using it
>for Usenet posts for years. Like, at one point in the ‘90s I got so
>much spam that it blew out my bandwidth limit and I got charged an
>overage, just for receiving handshakes and dropping spam on the
>ground.

Yeah, I used to be in the UUCP maps as well, way back in the olden days.

>I tried being aggressively OCD about RFC compliance and found I was
>missing mail I actually needed. Like, from lawyers and similar stuff
>that had real world consequences.

I simply tell those people that they either (a) fix their systems or (b) use snail-mail.  Takes care of the problem entirely.

>So I went back to using a combination of multiple layers of filters
>and a greylist front end. Oh, and blocking all of China and
>Argentina.

I use a couple of blacklists.  Oftentimes the same malefactor that happens to be sending spam is also running ssh probes and other miscreant malicious crap.  Getting blacklisted by me means you are blacklisted and get dead air.  I do return appropriate ICMP "administratively denied" notifications, but other than that, they can bugger off entirely.

>Still get a lot of spam that Apple Mail’s Bayesian filter takes care
>of. Mostly.

I do not let the stuff in in the first place, so there is nothing much to filter.  This makes it much easier.

>Still too many false positives. I switched to gmail for mail I
>actually really needed to get. I was spending too much lifetime
>dealing with mail issues.

And that is the major difference I suppose.  I consider that there is no such thing as a "false positive".  Either the sending MTA is a properly configured RFC compliant Internet host with a properly configured MTA, or I do not want to accept communications from it.  If it is properly configured *AND* it is not on any of the blacklists that I use (only some of which are spam related -- as I said there is a huge cross-over between dirty spammers and dirty crackers) then I will accept the message.  Otherwise, not only do they not get to send messages, they will likely be "administratively prohibited" from communicating at all on any port for any reason whatsoever.  And that is THEIR problem to address, not mine.

Just as there is a modern propensity for the re-labelling of "impersonation" as "identity theft" in order to lay blame and inconvenience on the person impersonated instead of where it belongs (as a natural consequence of the law) on the "impersonator" and the relying party who made the "mistake", pretending that the recipient is somehow required to receive, read and obey whatever some idiot sends is an inversion of the natural order of things and is delusional (on the part of both parties).




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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

John McKown
In reply to this post by Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ-2
On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> > I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> > Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> > --
> > D. Richard Hipp
> > [hidden email]
>
> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and convenient. I
> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk activity
> here is very practical or appealing.
>

​I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not _a_
forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
"polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody has
said anything of interest.


>
> --
> Bill Drago
> Staff Engineer
> L3 Narda-MITEQ
> 435 Moreland Road
> Hauppauge, NY 11788
> 631-272-5947 / [hidden email]
>

--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Peter da Silva
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
On 11/21/17, 10:30 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Keith Medcalf" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
> I simply tell those people that they either (a) fix their systems or (b) use snail-mail.  Takes care of the problem entirely.

I am absolutely not going to get into that discussion with, for one example, a lawyer in another country who is helping me deal with winding down my mother’s estate.


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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

R Smith
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf

On 2017/11/21 6:30 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote:
> //...
> I consider that there is no such thing as a "false positive".  Either the sending MTA is a properly configured RFC compliant Internet host with a properly configured MTA, or I do not want to accept communications from it.  If it is properly configured *AND* it is not on any of the blacklists that I use (only some of which are spam related -- as I said there is a huge cross-over between dirty spammers and dirty crackers) then I will accept the message.  Otherwise, not only do they not get to send messages, they will likely be "administratively prohibited" from communicating at all on any port for any reason whatsoever.  And that is THEIR problem to address, not mine.
>
> Just as there is a modern propensity for the re-labelling of "impersonation" as "identity theft" in order to lay blame and inconvenience on the person impersonated instead of where it belongs (as a natural consequence of the law) on the "impersonator" and the relying party who made the "mistake", pretending that the recipient is somehow required to receive, read and obey whatever some idiot sends is an inversion of the natural order of things and is delusional (on the part of both parties).
> //...

For best effect, read the above with a German accent while holding your
right hand straight forward and pointing slightly up in front of you.


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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Martin Raiber
In reply to this post by John McKown
On 21.11.2017 17:30 John McKown wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
>>> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>>> --
>>> D. Richard Hipp
>>> [hidden email]
>> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and convenient. I
>> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk activity
>> here is very practical or appealing.
> ​I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not _a_
> forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
> "polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody has
> said anything of interest.

I am using Discourse as community forum and I cannot really see any
downside to that except for the increased server requirements.
Individuals who want to use it like a mailing list still can do that
(enable mailing list mode). They have a FAQ wrt. to cos/prons mailing
list: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298

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