Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Stephen Chrzanowski
All in all, just please, oh PLEASE stay away from redit....  I will not
ever go there.  I got BANNED for a first post question that included an
example to clarify what I was looking for.  Nothing nasty, nothing
ignorant, it was a technical question about something or other, and out to
the curb I went.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Martin Raiber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 21.11.2017 17:30 John McKown wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> >>> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> >>> --
> >>> D. Richard Hipp
> >>> [hidden email]
> >> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and
> convenient. I
> >> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk
> activity
> >> here is very practical or appealing.
> > ​I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not
> _a_
> > forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
> > "polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody has
> > said anything of interest.
>
> I am using Discourse as community forum and I cannot really see any
> downside to that except for the increased server requirements.
> Individuals who want to use it like a mailing list still can do that
> (enable mailing list mode). They have a FAQ wrt. to cos/prons mailing
> list: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Peter da Silva
I’m a mailing list fan, too. Reddit I use for yucks only.

On 11/21/17, 10:48 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Stephen Chrzanowski" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    All in all, just please, oh PLEASE stay away from redit....  I will not
    ever go there.  I got BANNED for a first post question that included an
    example to clarify what I was looking for.  Nothing nasty, nothing
    ignorant, it was a technical question about something or other, and out to
    the curb I went.
 

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Paul Sanderson
In reply to this post by Martin Raiber
What about some sort of poll.

Mail lists might work but the additonal functionality offered by a forum (I
am a member of many) makes them my choice.

Paul
www.sandersonforensics.com
skype: r3scue193
twitter: @sandersonforens
Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-Toolkit
-Forensic Toolkit for SQLite
email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence

On 21 November 2017 at 16:43, Martin Raiber <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 21.11.2017 17:30 John McKown wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
> > [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> >>> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> >>> --
> >>> D. Richard Hipp
> >>> [hidden email]
> >> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and
> convenient. I
> >> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk
> activity
> >> here is very practical or appealing.
> > ​I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not
> _a_
> > forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
> > "polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody has
> > said anything of interest.
>
> I am using Discourse as community forum and I cannot really see any
> downside to that except for the increased server requirements.
> Individuals who want to use it like a mailing list still can do that
> (enable mailing list mode). They have a FAQ wrt. to cos/prons mailing
> list: https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Warren Young
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On Nov 21, 2017, at 7:30 AM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

I thought the idea that came up last time this subject came up was pretty good: rework Fossil's ticketing system into a web forum.  Then everyone who clones the repository also has a forum archive.  

Import the current mail archive, and now everyone who clones gets a clean FTSable copy of the old ML archives going back years and years.

I don’t mean that both purposes are served by the same code, I mean that the ticketing system is already pretty far down the road toward a web forum.  If they do end up sharing code, tickets would be a subset of the web forum, not the other way around.

You don’t get proper threading with the current ticket comment system, but both mailers I use these days lack that feature, as do most forum systems.  I miss threading, but clearly I can live without it.
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Warren Young
In reply to this post by Dominique Devienne
On Nov 21, 2017, at 7:52 AM, Dominique Devienne <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list. Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>
> After re-inventing database and source-control, forum software next? :)

Also parser generators:

   http://www.hwaci.com/sw/lemon/

This is what drh does.  We’re fans because he does it well.
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Peter da Silva
In reply to this post by Warren Young
On 11/21/17, 11:21 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Warren Young" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
> You don’t get proper threading with the current ticket comment system, but both mailers I use these days lack that feature, as do most forum systems.  I miss threading, but clearly I can live without it.

If by “proper threading” you mean trn-style, no, nothing but Usenet has ever gotten that right.

But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck) Outlook) all do basic threading.

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Stephen Chrzanowski
In reply to this post by Paul Sanderson
IMO, the additional functionality provided doesn't outweigh yet another
niche and individual forum I need to log into that can potentially end up
being hacked.  Its another thing Richard (et all) has to maintain and
update.

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Paul Sanderson <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> What about some sort of poll.
>
> Mail lists might work but the additonal functionality offered by a forum (I
> am a member of many) makes them my choice.
>
> Paul
> www.sandersonforensics.com
> skype: r3scue193
> twitter: @sandersonforens
> Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
> http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-
> Forensic-Toolkit
> -Forensic Toolkit for SQLite
> email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Darren Duncan
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On 2017-11-21 6:30 AM, Richard Hipp wrote:

> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

If you do go the forum route, please choose one with an email interface so that
one can choose to receive an email for each forum message (it doesn't have to
support posting via email though), and download archives of messages, so we
don't go backwards. -- Darren Duncan

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

David Raymond
In reply to this post by Peter da Silva
Haven't you read the FAQ? http://www.sqlite.org/faq.html#q6
"Threads are evil. Avoid them."


(Sorry, couldn't resist)


-----Original Message-----
From: sqlite-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Da Silva
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:24 PM
To: SQLite mailing list
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On 11/21/17, 11:21 AM, "sqlite-users on behalf of Warren Young" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
> You don’t get proper threading with the current ticket comment system, but both mailers I use these days lack that feature, as do most forum systems.  I miss threading, but clearly I can live without it.

If by “proper threading” you mean trn-style, no, nothing but Usenet has ever gotten that right.

But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck) Outlook) all do basic threading.

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Mike King-6
In reply to this post by Paul Sanderson
In the UK we’ve still got a threaded conferencing service called CIX must
be over 30 years old now (it was based on BIX / Cosy). The joke is it’s the
UKs oldest online social network :)

Another vote for a threaded forum here. I do try and keep up with the ML
but if it was threaded it would be a lot easier.

Cheers,

Mike

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 at 17:20, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> What about some sort of poll.
>
> Mail lists might work but the additonal functionality offered by a forum (I
> am a member of many) makes them my choice.
>
> Paul
> www.sandersonforensics.com
> skype: r3scue193
> twitter: @sandersonforens
> Tel +44 (0)1326 572786
> http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-Toolkit
> -Forensic
> <http://sandersonforensics.com/forum/content.php?195-SQLite-Forensic-Toolkit-Forensic>
> Toolkit for SQLite
> email from a work address for a fully functional demo licence
>
> On 21 November 2017 at 16:43, Martin Raiber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 21.11.2017 17:30 John McKown wrote:
> > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ <
> > > [hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > >>> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> > >>> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> > >>> --
> > >>> D. Richard Hipp
> > >>> [hidden email]
> > >> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and
> > convenient. I
> > >> don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk
> > activity
> > >> here is very practical or appealing.
> > > ​I completely agree. The problem with a forum is mainly that it is not
> > _a_
> > > forum. It is a forum per list. Which means I spend way too much time
> > > "polling" 8 to 10 web "forums" during the day just to see if anybody
> has
> > > said anything of interest.
> >
> > I am using Discourse as community forum and I cannot really see any
> > downside to that except for the increased server requirements.
> > Individuals who want to use it like a mailing list still can do that
> > (enable mailing list mode). They have a FAQ wrt. to cos/prons mailing
> > list:
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-vs-email-mailing-lists/54298
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sqlite-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
> >
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Warren Young
In reply to this post by Peter da Silva
On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Peter Da Silva <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck) Outlook) all do basic threading.

I’d describe what Apple Mail and Gmail do as “clumping” rather than “threading.”

I think we can all agree that drh gets trees, so if he wants to make a threaded web forum, he certainly needs no advice from us on how to achieve it.

The effort to implement Hacker News can’t have been all that great.  It would suffice for our purposes.  Do it atop Fossil and you get user authentication for free, which reduces spam.  When (!) spam gets through, it can be shunned using the normal Fossil mechanism, so that later clones don’t contain it.

As far as I can tell, the only really hard part is the email gatewaying problem, evidenced by the fact that Fossil still doesn’t have a feature to echo commits, ticket changes, etc. via email.

The comment up-thread about RFC-complaint email handwaves the complexity of achieving that in 2017, even when using existing tools, which is not a given where drh is concerned.  

If you start with Postfix’s RFC list:

   http://www.postfix.org/smtpd.8.html

then chase all the “obsoleted by” and “updated by” links from those RFCs and add in completely missing RFCs that are also requirements in 2017, you get this list, which is probably also incomplete, because I am no expert on MTA implementation:

       RFC 1123 (Host requirements)
       RFC 1870 (Message size declaration)
       RFC 1985 (ETRN command)
       RFC 2034 (SMTP enhanced status codes)
       RFC 2920 (SMTP pipelining)
       RFC 3207 (STARTTLS command)
       RFC 3461 (SMTP DSN extension)
       RFC 3463 (Enhanced status codes)
       RFC 3848 (ESMTP transmission types)
       RFC 3885 (SMTP Service Extension for Message Tracking)
       RFC 4954 (AUTH command)
       RFC 5321 (SMTP protocol)
       RFC 5322 (Internet Message Format)
       RFC 6152 (8bit-MIME transport)
       RFC 6409 (Message Submission for Mail)
       RFC 6531 (Internationalized SMTP)
       RFC 6532 (Internationalized Email Headers)
       RFC 6533 (Internationalized Delivery Status Notifications)
       RFC 7489 (DMARC)
       RFC 7504 (SMTP 521 and 556 Reply Codes)
       RFC 7505 ("Null MX" No Service Resource Record)
       RFC 7817 (STARTTLS updates)
       RFC 8098 (Message Disposition Notification)

Those 23 standards print as 579 pages.  Yes, that’s right, someone “just” has to implement 579 pages of standardese, which gets you only SMTP, which we’d better hope is enough since IMAPv4 + POPv3 probably doubles that again.
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Petite Abeille-2


> On Nov 21, 2017, at 8:42 PM, Warren Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As far as I can tell, the only really hard part is the email gatewaying problem, evidenced by the fact that Fossil still doesn’t have a feature to echo commits, ticket changes, etc. via email.

“Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.”

— Zawinski's Law


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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

sub sk79
In reply to this post by Mike King-6
I vote to keep mailing list. It works great for me with GMail (accessible
from all my devices instantly)
Reasons:
1. GMail has a threaded view built-in which works great. You might need to
enable it in settings.
2. I doubt if any spam filter can ever be better than Gmail's. Spam
fighting is not just a matter of having Bayesian algos right -- it needs
mountains of data to work right. Who can beat Google in that?
3. Searching fast and accurate is crucial to my use of SQLite mailing list.
Again Google can't be beat.
4. If at all needed, maybe this offering  from Google is the way to go:
https://support.google.com/a/answer/167430?hl=en (I have no experience
using it, though)

Thanks,
SK



On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mike King <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Another vote for a threaded forum here. I do try and keep up with the ML
> but if it was threaded it would be a lot easier.
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Keith Medcalf
In reply to this post by Warren Young

Strict RFC compliance is very simple:

(1) When a remote MTA connects it MUST NOT speak until spoken to.
(2) A remote MTA MUST NOT violate the command/response protocol.
(3) The IP Address of the remote host MUST resolve (in the in-addr.arpa domain) to a name that forward resolves to a set of IP Addresses that includes the originating address.
(4) The name given by a remote host in its HELO or EHLO, if not an IP Address, must be resolvable to an IP Address.
(5) The domain name given in the envelope-from must be resolvable to an IP Address.

Optional:

(6) The IP Address determined by step 4 must accept SMTP connections.
(7) The IP Address determined by step 5 must accept SMTP connections.
(8) The MTA in step 7 must accept an envelope specifying envelope-to the original envelope sender with an empty envelope-from

Enforcing compliance with (1) eliminates >70% of all spam.
Enforcing compliance with (2) eliminates an additional 10% of all spam.
Enforcing compliance with (3) eliminates an additional 10% of all spam.
Enforcing compliance with (4) and (5) eliminates almost another 10% of spam.
Enforcing (6), (7), and (8) (that is, requiring full RFC compliance) eliminates 99.99% of spam.

If you also can enforce the dropping of direct-to-mx connections (that is, connections to higher numbered MX's should be rejected if a lower number MX MTA is availkable), then you can increase the spam rejection to about 99.999%

And this is all without blacklists or other questionable whack-job filtering ...


---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Warren Young
>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 12:43
>To: SQLite mailing list
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>
>On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Peter Da Silva
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck)
>Outlook) all do basic threading.
>
>I’d describe what Apple Mail and Gmail do as “clumping” rather than
>“threading.”
>
>I think we can all agree that drh gets trees, so if he wants to make
>a threaded web forum, he certainly needs no advice from us on how to
>achieve it.
>
>The effort to implement Hacker News can’t have been all that great.
>It would suffice for our purposes.  Do it atop Fossil and you get
>user authentication for free, which reduces spam.  When (!) spam gets
>through, it can be shunned using the normal Fossil mechanism, so that
>later clones don’t contain it.
>
>As far as I can tell, the only really hard part is the email
>gatewaying problem, evidenced by the fact that Fossil still doesn’t
>have a feature to echo commits, ticket changes, etc. via email.
>
>The comment up-thread about RFC-complaint email handwaves the
>complexity of achieving that in 2017, even when using existing tools,
>which is not a given where drh is concerned.
>
>If you start with Postfix’s RFC list:
>
>   http://www.postfix.org/smtpd.8.html
>
>then chase all the “obsoleted by” and “updated by” links from those
>RFCs and add in completely missing RFCs that are also requirements in
>2017, you get this list, which is probably also incomplete, because I
>am no expert on MTA implementation:
>
>       RFC 1123 (Host requirements)
>       RFC 1870 (Message size declaration)
>       RFC 1985 (ETRN command)
>       RFC 2034 (SMTP enhanced status codes)
>       RFC 2920 (SMTP pipelining)
>       RFC 3207 (STARTTLS command)
>       RFC 3461 (SMTP DSN extension)
>       RFC 3463 (Enhanced status codes)
>       RFC 3848 (ESMTP transmission types)
>       RFC 3885 (SMTP Service Extension for Message Tracking)
>       RFC 4954 (AUTH command)
>       RFC 5321 (SMTP protocol)
>       RFC 5322 (Internet Message Format)
>       RFC 6152 (8bit-MIME transport)
>       RFC 6409 (Message Submission for Mail)
>       RFC 6531 (Internationalized SMTP)
>       RFC 6532 (Internationalized Email Headers)
>       RFC 6533 (Internationalized Delivery Status Notifications)
>       RFC 7489 (DMARC)
>       RFC 7504 (SMTP 521 and 556 Reply Codes)
>       RFC 7505 ("Null MX" No Service Resource Record)
>       RFC 7817 (STARTTLS updates)
>       RFC 8098 (Message Disposition Notification)
>
>Those 23 standards print as 579 pages.  Yes, that’s right, someone
>“just” has to implement 579 pages of standardese, which gets you only
>SMTP, which we’d better hope is enough since IMAPv4 + POPv3 probably
>doubles that again.
>_______________________________________________
>sqlite-users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users



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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Keith Medcalf

And checking SPF is pretty useful as well.  Once you have enforced strict compliance, however, the effect of SPF is negligible (less than 1/1000%).  

DKIM/DMARC generally causes more trouble than it solves (it was designed by a committee of idiots after all) and should be mostly ignored other than for displaying a DKIM Signature Status in the mail reader interface.

Most of the problem is the horribly broken e-mail clients, none of which display useful information.  For those old enough to remember postal mail, it is like having a secretary that throws out the envelope and trims off most of the inside and signature information before giving you your mail.

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>Strict RFC compliance is very simple:
>
>(1) When a remote MTA connects it MUST NOT speak until spoken to.
>(2) A remote MTA MUST NOT violate the command/response protocol.
>(3) The IP Address of the remote host MUST resolve (in the in-
>addr.arpa domain) to a name that forward resolves to a set of IP
>Addresses that includes the originating address.
>(4) The name given by a remote host in its HELO or EHLO, if not an IP
>Address, must be resolvable to an IP Address.
>(5) The domain name given in the envelope-from must be resolvable to
>an IP Address.
>
>Optional:
>
>(6) The IP Address determined by step 4 must accept SMTP connections.
>(7) The IP Address determined by step 5 must accept SMTP connections.
>(8) The MTA in step 7 must accept an envelope specifying envelope-to
>the original envelope sender with an empty envelope-from
>
>Enforcing compliance with (1) eliminates >70% of all spam.
>Enforcing compliance with (2) eliminates an additional 10% of all
>spam.
>Enforcing compliance with (3) eliminates an additional 10% of all
>spam.
>Enforcing compliance with (4) and (5) eliminates almost another 10%
>of spam.
>Enforcing (6), (7), and (8) (that is, requiring full RFC compliance)
>eliminates 99.99% of spam.
>
>If you also can enforce the dropping of direct-to-mx connections
>(that is, connections to higher numbered MX's should be rejected if a
>lower number MX MTA is availkable), then you can increase the spam
>rejection to about 99.999%
>
>And this is all without blacklists or other questionable whack-job
>filtering ...
>
>
>---
>The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven
>says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Warren Young
>>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 12:43
>>To: SQLite mailing list
>>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>>
>>On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Peter Da Silva
>><[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and
>(yuck)
>>Outlook) all do basic threading.
>>
>>I’d describe what Apple Mail and Gmail do as “clumping” rather than
>>“threading.”
>>
>>I think we can all agree that drh gets trees, so if he wants to make
>>a threaded web forum, he certainly needs no advice from us on how to
>>achieve it.
>>
>>The effort to implement Hacker News can’t have been all that great.
>>It would suffice for our purposes.  Do it atop Fossil and you get
>>user authentication for free, which reduces spam.  When (!) spam
>gets
>>through, it can be shunned using the normal Fossil mechanism, so
>that
>>later clones don’t contain it.
>>
>>As far as I can tell, the only really hard part is the email
>>gatewaying problem, evidenced by the fact that Fossil still doesn’t
>>have a feature to echo commits, ticket changes, etc. via email.
>>
>>The comment up-thread about RFC-complaint email handwaves the
>>complexity of achieving that in 2017, even when using existing
>tools,
>>which is not a given where drh is concerned.
>>
>>If you start with Postfix’s RFC list:
>>
>>   http://www.postfix.org/smtpd.8.html
>>
>>then chase all the “obsoleted by” and “updated by” links from those
>>RFCs and add in completely missing RFCs that are also requirements
>in
>>2017, you get this list, which is probably also incomplete, because
>I
>>am no expert on MTA implementation:
>>
>>       RFC 1123 (Host requirements)
>>       RFC 1870 (Message size declaration)
>>       RFC 1985 (ETRN command)
>>       RFC 2034 (SMTP enhanced status codes)
>>       RFC 2920 (SMTP pipelining)
>>       RFC 3207 (STARTTLS command)
>>       RFC 3461 (SMTP DSN extension)
>>       RFC 3463 (Enhanced status codes)
>>       RFC 3848 (ESMTP transmission types)
>>       RFC 3885 (SMTP Service Extension for Message Tracking)
>>       RFC 4954 (AUTH command)
>>       RFC 5321 (SMTP protocol)
>>       RFC 5322 (Internet Message Format)
>>       RFC 6152 (8bit-MIME transport)
>>       RFC 6409 (Message Submission for Mail)
>>       RFC 6531 (Internationalized SMTP)
>>       RFC 6532 (Internationalized Email Headers)
>>       RFC 6533 (Internationalized Delivery Status Notifications)
>>       RFC 7489 (DMARC)
>>       RFC 7504 (SMTP 521 and 556 Reply Codes)
>>       RFC 7505 ("Null MX" No Service Resource Record)
>>       RFC 7817 (STARTTLS updates)
>>       RFC 8098 (Message Disposition Notification)
>>
>>Those 23 standards print as 579 pages.  Yes, that’s right, someone
>>“just” has to implement 579 pages of standardese, which gets you
>only
>>SMTP, which we’d better hope is enough since IMAPv4 + POPv3 probably
>>doubles that again.
>>_______________________________________________
>>sqlite-users mailing list
>>[hidden email]
>>http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Petite Abeille-2
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3


> On Nov 21, 2017, at 3:30 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think what we are seeing is the beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.

Nonsense. Email is one of these cockroach technologies: it will survive us all.

> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.

No you don’t. You just want to.

> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

Stay put. Relax. It will pass.

There are more productive way to spend your time: what about adding analytic functions, and MERGE to SQLite for one.

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Petite Abeille-2
In reply to this post by Warren Young


> On Nov 21, 2017, at 6:23 PM, Warren Young <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This is what drh does.  We’re fans because he does it well.

drh + djb = bliss?

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Gary R. Schmidt
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On 22/11/2017 01:30, Richard Hipp wrote:

> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>
There is nothing wrong with email - but there is an awful lot wrong with
gnail and Google's ideas on how email is done.  (Not to mention Yahoo,
but it seems that MS have the sense to leave the underpinnings of
hotmail as they were.)

To put it simply - friends don't let friends use gmail.

        Cheers,
                Gary B-)
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Warren Young
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
On Nov 21, 2017, at 1:20 PM, Keith Medcalf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Strict RFC compliance is very simple:

We await your patch, then. :)

> And checking SPF is pretty useful as well.

But not DKIM, which solves the same problem as SPF, but with strong crypto so it can’t be MITM’d?

DKIM effectively signs email from a given server.  It doesn’t tell you that a particular person sent it, but it does unambiguously prove that a given *server* sent it, assuming the server doesn’t lose control of its private key.

Some receivers may require only SPF, and some may require only DKIM, so if you don’t support both, you cut those receivers off.

Some receivers may support both but weigh a correct response to one higher than the other, so if you only support the lesser-ranked one, your messages are more likely to be seen as spam, which gets you right back onto the boat aboard which we sailed off into this thread.

> DMARC generally causes more trouble than it solves

That may well be, but some receivers may require it.  If this proposed MTA/forum/mailing list doesn’t support it, those sites will be cut off.

Which sites?  Let’s start with the US federal government:

    https://goo.gl/F7ahDg

…which employs a large fraction of the US workforce:

   https://goo.gl/nXDCc4

…all of which we’re willing to cut off from discussing SQLite and Fossil?

> And this is all without blacklists or other questionable whack-job filtering …

You’re only considering the inbound SMTP case, I think.  This MTA must also talk to all the other existing SMTP servers, since to a first approximation, all SMTP servers have a SQLite or Fossil user behind them.
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

sub sk79
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Sqlite had a forum in the past on Nabble. Seems nice to me, I still get
several hits to nabble when googling for sqlite issues.
What didn't work there?

-SK

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 9:30 AM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of
> SQLite
> > email as 'not spam'
>
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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