Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Jungle Boogie
On 21 November 2017 at 06:30, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>
> I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
> Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
> beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
> I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
> Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.

I'm in the keep the email list, but get it setup correctly as per
Keith's recommendations.

Also, there's #sqlite on irc.freenode.net

Let's get on irc (because we all have an irc client already, right)
and chat. No need for Richard to be distracted by setting up, managing
and running forums and Discord.

> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]

--
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Jungle Boogie
In reply to this post by Warren Young
On 21 November 2017 at 11:42, Warren Young <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:24 AM, Peter Da Silva <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> But the mailers I use (Gmail’s web interface, Apple Mail and (yuck) Outlook) all do basic threading.
>
> I’d describe what Apple Mail and Gmail do as “clumping” rather than “threading.”
>
> I think we can all agree that drh gets trees, so if he wants to make a threaded web forum, he certainly needs no advice from us on how to achieve it.
>
> The effort to implement Hacker News can’t have been all that great.  It would suffice for our purposes.  Do it atop Fossil and you get user authentication for free, which reduces spam.  When (!) spam gets through, it can be shunned using the normal Fossil mechanism, so that later clones don’t contain it.
>

An alternative to HN with similar layout:
https://lobste.rs/
https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Jonathon Blake
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
On 11/21/2017 08:20 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote:

> Strict RFC compliance is very simple:

Which explains why virtually every email client on mobile devices is
unable to send email that complies with the relevant RFCs.

Using  RFC-compliance as a spam detection tool is useful, because it
eliminates 100% of the spam out there.
Unfortunately, it also eliminates at least 70% of the legitimate email
out there.


jonathon


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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

jose isaias cabrera-3
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf

I have been having the same problem for a while.  But, this is using Windows
Live Mail client.  I would love to keep the list email driven, if possible.
But, whatever it is, I will be part of the next phase of communication.
Thanks.


-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Medcalf
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 10:59 AM
To: SQLite mailing list
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM


In my opinion it is the beginning of the end of crappy freemail providers
and their overzealous spam filtering.  And it is about time.

If you run an RFC complaint MTA then there is really very little problem
with SPAM at all -- I have many connections per second rejected for RFC
non-compliance -- and get maybe 3 SPAM messages per day, all of which
originate from the crappy Johhny-cum-lately freemail systems.  It is just
that the Johhny-cum-lately's (freemail, telco's, cableco's) have no idea how
to run RFC compliant Internet Hosts and MTA's that have issues.  Plus those
that insist on being RFC non-compliant so they can communicate with the
Johhny-cum-lately non-RFC compliant hosts and MTA's.

A far better approach is to remain RFC compliant and if someone you want to
communicate with insists on not being an RFC compliant Internet host and
MTA, then tell them to bugger off and use old fashioned snail-mail that does
not require a properly configured host connected to the Internet.

---
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a
lot about anticipated traffic volume.


>-----Original Message-----
>From: sqlite-users [mailto:sqlite-users-
>[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Hipp
>Sent: Tuesday, 21 November, 2017 07:31
>To: SQLite mailing list
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>
>On 11/21/17, Paul Sanderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Coincidence!  I have just been in my gmail folder marking a load of
>SQLite
>> email as 'not spam'
>
>I've been seeing mailing list emails go to spam for a while now.
>Nothing has changed with MailMan.  I think what we are seeing is the
>beginning of the end of email as a viable communication medium.
>
>I really need to come up with an alternative to the mailing list.
>Perhaps some kind of forum system.  Suggestions are welcomed.
>--
>D. Richard Hipp
>[hidden email]
>_______________________________________________
>sqlite-users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users



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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Richard Damon
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
On 11/21/17 3:29 PM, Keith Medcalf wrote:
> And checking SPF is pretty useful as well.  Once you have enforced strict compliance, however, the effect of SPF is negligible (less than 1/1000%).
>
> DKIM/DMARC generally causes more trouble than it solves (it was designed by a committee of idiots after all) and should be mostly ignored other than for displaying a DKIM Signature Status in the mail reader interface.
>
> Most of the problem is the horribly broken e-mail clients, none of which display useful information.  For those old enough to remember postal mail, it is like having a secretary that throws out the envelope and trims off most of the inside and signature information before giving you your mail.
>
> ---
> The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
DMARC is actually works very well for its originally intended usage, the
preventing of spoofs of important emails (like from banks). The key
point is any domain that uses DMARC must not also be used with a 3rd
party remailing system, like mailing-lists, The problem everyones has
with DMARC is that the yahoos at Yahoo adopted it as a solution for
their security breaches, and rather than tell their users that they have
takens this action and they can not use mailing list or other remailing
services, they told the world, yes, we broke email, we are big enough it
is your job to fix the mess we created.

There is a fundamental problem with the email system that it goes back
to a kinder and gentler time, and it is trivial to spoof most mail.
SPF/DKIM/DMARC are part of the attempt to fix this, and I think the
developers of those understand they have just started. The issue is that
some others have taken these beginnings and deployed it outside the
intended sphere where there are issues still to be resolved.

--
Richard Damon

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

J Decker
Amongs all of these, I'd like to throw in that I'd like to see a gitter.im
channel for sqlite (as opposed to discord or slack).  gitter is much easier
to share code snippets on and is much faster.  It's also got nice
integration with github... although that's less important since sqlite
isn't hosted there.
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Peter da Silva
In reply to this post by jose isaias cabrera-3
On 11/21/17, 9:54 PM, "sqlite-users on behalf of jose isaias cabrera" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
> But, whatever it is, I will be part of the next phase of communication.

This.

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

wmertens
One more reason for some forum vs a mailing list: You can "like" a post
without spamming everyone, thus showing your appreciation to the poster and
surfacing interesting content for summarization algorithms.

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 2:13 PM Peter Da Silva <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/21/17, 9:54 PM, "sqlite-users on behalf of jose isaias cabrera" <
> [hidden email] on behalf of
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> > But, whatever it is, I will be part of the next phase of communication.
>
> This.
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Dominique Devienne
On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Wout Mertens <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> One more reason for some forum vs a mailing list: You can "like" a post
> without spamming everyone, thus showing your appreciation to the poster and
> surfacing interesting content for summarization algorithms.


Or then reputation points can build up too.
But then you're quickly converging on stack-overflow...

In fact, if there wasn't this high quality high responsiveness mailing list,
the SQLite stack overflow subgroup would be better/faster I suspect. --DD
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

wmertens
In SO you have very little socialization going on. This mailinglist is
awesome because it is filled with people who will enthousiastically share
very detailed information, each in their own way. On SO there is no
long-term narrative.

I subscribed to this mailing list because I needed help, and I didn't
unsubscribe because of the interesting threads. With SO you have to be
dedicated to follow a content stream.

In my experience, Discourse offers a good balance between being chat-like
and mailinglist-like, while also storing the collected wisdom for
posterity. It does get indexed by search engines, see for example
https://www.google.pl/search?q=site:forum.waytools.com or
https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3aforum.waytools.com

Indeed though, it requires JS to be enabled to post, but you can set up
reply by email:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/new-reply-via-email-support/7764

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 3:36 PM Dominique Devienne <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 3:08 PM, Wout Mertens <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > One more reason for some forum vs a mailing list: You can "like" a post
> > without spamming everyone, thus showing your appreciation to the poster
> and
> > surfacing interesting content for summarization algorithms.
>
>
> Or then reputation points can build up too.
> But then you're quickly converging on stack-overflow...
>
> In fact, if there wasn't this high quality high responsiveness mailing
> list,
> the SQLite stack overflow subgroup would be better/faster I suspect. --DD
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Keith Medcalf
In reply to this post by Richard Damon

On Wednesday, 22 November, 2017 04:47, Richard Damon <[hidden email]> wrote:

>There is a fundamental problem with the email system that it goes
>back to a kinder and gentler time, and it is trivial to spoof most
>mail.

Including good old-fashioned snail mail of course.  There is also no way to determine the "identity" of the sender of postal mail either.  Both the envelope addresses and the inside addresses can be forgeries (same as they can with e-mail).  In both cases only the postmark (or Received headers) are all that can be reliably determined.

However, it is generally immediately noticeable if the envelope-from, inside, and signature's on snail mail are inconsistent and the postmark indicates the originating post office was is Boogaloo rather than Dumphries.  This information is not commonly displayed for e-mail.  SPF is the e-mail equivalent of matching the envelope-from to the sending MTA (post office).  DKIM adds to this by cryptographic assurance of the inside and body to the sending MTA (post office).  DMARC is simply to address the issue that DKIM signatures cannot be verified until after the recipient has taken custody of the message rather than rejecting the receipt of the message in the first place.  DMARC is the electronic replacement of the old-fashioned dustbin.

>SPF/DKIM/DMARC are part of the attempt to fix this, and I think the
>developers of those understand they have just started. The issue is
>that
>some others have taken these beginnings and deployed it outside the
>intended sphere where there are issues still to be resolved.




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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ-2
In reply to this post by Gary R. Schmidt
> There is nothing wrong with email - but there is an awful lot wrong with gnail
> and Google's ideas on how email is done.  (Not to mention Yahoo, but it
> seems that MS have the sense to leave the underpinnings of hotmail as they
> were.)
>
> To put it simply - friends don't let friends use gmail.
>
> Cheers,
> GaryB-)

Short of running my own server, what do you recommend? After losing my lifelong email provider (Suffolk.lib.ny.us) and trying a few others, I eventually settled for gmail, which I use with Thunderbird. I don't have any significant issues with that setup.

--
Bill Drago
Staff Engineer
L3 Narda-MITEQ
435 Moreland Road
Hauppauge, NY 11788
631-272-5947 / [hidden email]

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain material that is proprietary, confidential, privileged or otherwise legally protected or restricted under applicable government laws. Any review, disclosure, distributing or other use without expressed permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies without reading, printing, or saving.

Beginning April 1, 2018, L3 Technologies, Inc. will discontinue the use of all @L-3Com.com email addresses. To ensure delivery of your messages to this recipient, please update your records to use [hidden email].
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Igor Korot
Hi,
Postgres very recently switched to PGLister for their ML

This software switch tries to do exactly that - it tries to stay
complaint with all this DMARC stuff.

Here is the announcement that was posted on their wiki page:
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce.

Since SQLite follows PostgreSQL maybe we should have something similar?


Just my $0.02.

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 9:44 AM, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> There is nothing wrong with email - but there is an awful lot wrong with gnail
>> and Google's ideas on how email is done.  (Not to mention Yahoo, but it
>> seems that MS have the sense to leave the underpinnings of hotmail as they
>> were.)
>>
>> To put it simply - friends don't let friends use gmail.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> GaryB-)
>
> Short of running my own server, what do you recommend? After losing my lifelong email provider (Suffolk.lib.ny.us) and trying a few others, I eventually settled for gmail, which I use with Thunderbird. I don't have any significant issues with that setup.
>
> --
> Bill Drago
> Staff Engineer
> L3 Narda-MITEQ
> 435 Moreland Road
> Hauppauge, NY 11788
> 631-272-5947 / [hidden email]
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain material that is proprietary, confidential, privileged or otherwise legally protected or restricted under applicable government laws. Any review, disclosure, distributing or other use without expressed permission of the sender is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies without reading, printing, or saving.
>
> Beginning April 1, 2018, L3 Technologies, Inc. will discontinue the use of all @L-3Com.com email addresses. To ensure delivery of your messages to this recipient, please update your records to use [hidden email].
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Keith Medcalf
In reply to this post by Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ-2
>> There is nothing wrong with email - but there is an awful lot wrong
>> with gnail and Google's ideas on how email is done.  (Not to
>> mention Yahoo, but it seems that MS have the sense to leave the
>> underpinnings of hotmail as they were.)

>> To put it simply - friends don't let friends use gmail.

>> Cheers,
>> GaryB-)

>Short of running my own server, what do you recommend? After losing
>my lifelong email provider (Suffolk.lib.ny.us) and trying a few
>others, I eventually settled for gmail, which I use with Thunderbird.
>I don't have any significant issues with that setup.

And that is OK, as long as you realize that it is quite possible for the e-mail provider to be the one causing the issues and that they are not inherent in e-mail itself.  E-mail adds very little in the way of non-pre-existing conditions that did not exist before the advent of e-mail -- the only real difference being that one does not need to pay postage to send e-mail.

I run my own e-mail server and have since before there was an "Internet" as such and still do.  It has moved locations and data centers many times over the last almost four decades but it has always been mine.  I do have trust issues with third-parties so perhaps that is part of the reason.  More likely is that it was interesting to set up way back in the later part of the 80's and early 90's and there was no reason to discontinue using it.  It does cost a few dollars a month to maintain the infrastructure and does require care and feeding (particularly security feeding), from time to time, however, mostly all the running and maintenance is automated, as it should be.  Do something manually maybe once or twice.  If it needed doing twice then it should be automated so you don't have to do it manually again.  The exceptions happen to be major OS or software upgrades which I prefer to do by hand since they only occur with relative infrequency and may have/cause "other issues".

Periodically I have to re-jig some of the security to counter new tactics employed by the variety of miscreants out there in the world, but that does not really need to be done that often at this point (which is really interesting because as you figure out one method and appropriate countermeasures, another technique that was hidden in the noise becomes exposed -- this can really be a really entertaining process).  The fact that a few (4 or 5) spam e-mail slip through per day, and that the automation tells me that an equal number of new miscreants have been banished per day, plus the daily automated log audits lets me know that everything is working properly.




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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Jungle Boogie
In reply to this post by Igor Korot
On 22 November 2017 at 07:56, Igor Korot <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
> Postgres very recently switched to PGLister for their ML
>
> This software switch tries to do exactly that - it tries to stay
> complaint with all this DMARC stuff.
>
> Here is the announcement that was posted on their wiki page:
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce.
>

Not a bad consideration. Where's the documentation on the software,
though? Is it open source/free?
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

dmp
In reply to this post by Dominique Devienne
Well I think some have pointed out the issues with a online web
forum, logging in, lack of email notifications?

Mailing lists are one aspect of the Internet that in the last
25yrs has not disappointed me. Keeping the mailing list seems
to work or the irc option perhaps.

With that being said I would really like the Internet too take
a major change, to a model that is more distributed instead of
web server oriented. Something more like Steam.

With that in mind I have been working on a framework, and I'm
now trying to come up with a mechanism for I guess might be called
a forum of some type. One way or another I will implement something
and would be willing to work/experiment on this for perhaps a
solution that might meet communications needs of the list.

Dana Proctor
http://dandymadeproductions.com/projects/lindyFrame/lindyFrame_about.html

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Igor Korot
In reply to this post by Jungle Boogie
Hi,

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 10:53 AM, jungle Boogie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 22 November 2017 at 07:56, Igor Korot <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Postgres very recently switched to PGLister for their ML
>>
>> This software switch tries to do exactly that - it tries to stay
>> complaint with all this DMARC stuff.
>>
>> Here is the announcement that was posted on their wiki page:
>> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/PGLister_Announce.
>>
>
> Not a bad consideration. Where's the documentation on the software,
> though? Is it open source/free?

I don't know. I just subscribed to the PG ML general and got that notification.
If there is an interest I can try to ask or probably Mr Hipp can do that imself
and give more info.

One thing that I don't like is that the nice footer I see in the SQLite MLas:

[quote]
 _______________________________________________
 sqlite-users mailing list
 [hidden email]
 http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
[/quote]

will be gone. But this is the only downside as it stands right now
from my perspective as a
user.

Thank you.

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Niall O'Reilly
In reply to this post by Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ-2
On 21 Nov 2017, at 16:27, Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ wrote:

> Please, not a forum. The email list is instant, dynamic, and convenient. I don't think checking into a forum to stay current with the brisk activity here is very practical or appealing.

I agree with Bill on this.

It seems to me that the idea of re-architecting such a useful communications
channel as this mailing list on account of a cluster of false positives raised
by a single provider's triage system would best be characterized as an example
of "the tail wagging the dog".

I use this provider's service for the major bulk of my e-mail because the
university where I used to work, which provides a continued e-mail service
to retirees, long ago outsourced its previously in-house e-mail system,
which I once had a hand in running, to Google.

In my experience, this provider's triage system does a pretty good job,
with very few false positives.  I see the current high incidence of
mis-classification of messages received through the SQLite mailing list
as an aberration.

Since the triage system is open to tuning by each recipient for their own
incoming mail, I suggest that all that is needed is for each subscriber to
this list who depends (as I do) on GMail for their mail feed, to apply this
tuning for themselves.

I found instructions here: https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6579 and
have now set up the following filter:

  Matches: to:([hidden email])
  Do this: Never send it to Spam


Best regards,

Niall O'Reilly

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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

Drago, William @ CSG - NARDA-MITEQ-2
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sqlite-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Keith Medcalf
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 11:33 AM
> To: SQLite mailing list <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM
>
> >> There is nothing wrong with email - but there is an awful lot wrong
> >> with gnail and Google's ideas on how email is done.  (Not to mention
> >> Yahoo, but it seems that MS have the sense to leave the underpinnings
> >> of hotmail as they were.)
>
> >> To put it simply - friends don't let friends use gmail.
>
> >> Cheers,
> >> GaryB-)
>
> >Short of running my own server, what do you recommend? After losing my
> >lifelong email provider (Suffolk.lib.ny.us) and trying a few others, I
> >eventually settled for gmail, which I use with Thunderbird.
> >I don't have any significant issues with that setup.
>
> And that is OK, as long as you realize that it is quite possible for the e-mail
> provider to be the one causing the issues and that they are not inherent in e-
> mail itself.  E-mail adds very little in the way of non-pre-existing conditions
> that did not exist before the advent of e-mail -- the only real difference
> being that one does not need to pay postage to send e-mail.
>
> I run my own e-mail server and have since before there was an "Internet" as
> such and still do.  It has moved locations and data centers many times over
> the last almost four decades but it has always been mine.  I do have trust
> issues with third-parties so perhaps that is part of the reason.  More likely is
> that it was interesting to set up way back in the later part of the 80's and early
> 90's and there was no reason to discontinue using it.  It does cost a few
> dollars a month to maintain the infrastructure and does require care and
> feeding (particularly security feeding), from time to time, however, mostly all
> the running and maintenance is automated, as it should be.  Do something
> manually maybe once or twice.  If it needed doing twice then it should be
> automated so you don't have to do it manually again.  The exceptions
> happen to be major OS or software upgrades which I prefer to do by hand
> since they only occur with relative infrequency and may have/cause "other
> issues".
>
> Periodically I have to re-jig some of the security to counter new tactics
> employed by the variety of miscreants out there in the world, but that does
> not really need to be done that often at this point (which is really interesting
> because as you figure out one method and appropriate countermeasures,
> another technique that was hidden in the noise becomes exposed -- this can
> really be a really entertaining process).  The fact that a few (4 or 5) spam e-
> mail slip through per day, and that the automation tells me that an equal
> number of new miscreants have been banished per day, plus the daily
> automated log audits lets me know that everything is working properly.
>

Thanks for the interesting reply. What you describe is exactly what I envision, which is why I never ran my own server (although I have been very tempted). I have enough hobbies for now.

-Bill
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Re: Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

jose isaias cabrera-3
In reply to this post by Peter da Silva

This one.  That one.  Esta. Aquella. :-)


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Da Silva
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 8:12 AM
To: SQLite mailing list
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Many ML emails going to GMail's SPAM

On 11/21/17, 9:54 PM, "sqlite-users on behalf of jose isaias cabrera"
<[hidden email] on behalf of
[hidden email]> wrote:
> But, whatever it is, I will be part of the next phase of communication.

This.

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