New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

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New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Richard Hipp-3
I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:

    https://sqlite.org/forum
    https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac

Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
forum will eventually replace this mailing list.

The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
second link above for more information.

--
D. Richard Hipp
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Simon Slavin-3
Well, that'll annoy the nabble people.  And I can live with that.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Scott Robison-2
They can subscribe to the forum too. :)

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 2:40 PM Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, that'll annoy the nabble people.  And I can live with that.
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

nomad
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On Thu Mar 12, 2020 at 04:17:59PM -0400, Richard Hipp wrote:
> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
>
>     https://sqlite.org/forum
>     https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac

I know this topic has already been discussed deeply on this list, but I
would like to add my resistance "vote."

For experienced vim/emacs/$EDITOR users, Email composition via web
browser is one of the most debilitating experiences that can be
imposed.  I have kept well away from Gmail-like platforms for this
reason. In the other direction I also fear the loss of reading quality
in my email client as Markdown-isms or html content take hold.

On a purely technical note, although I haven't looked at the web
interface in detail, I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
anti-spam features are present. It seems rather easy to Preview and
Submit as anonymous.

--
Mark Lawrence
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Richard Hipp-3
On 3/12/20, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
> anti-spam features are present.

I will be happy to discuss that, and any other questions you have, on
the Forum.  :-)

--
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Warren Young
In reply to this post by nomad
On Mar 12, 2020, at 2:59 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> I would like to add my resistance "vote."

If experience on the Fossil mailing list is any guide, this mailing list will be a ghost town soon.  There have been just a few threads on the mailing list in the years since we started the forum, despite all the complaints leading up to the move.

Meanwhile, the forum is just as busy as the old mailing list was, maybe more so.

This SQLite mailing list has a higher posting rate than the Fossil Forum, but it probably also a greater percentage of “just plain users” than for Fossil, so I see no reason for the pattern not to repeat.

> For experienced vim/emacs/$EDITOR users, Email composition via web
> browser is one of the most debilitating experiences that can be
> imposed.

There is probably an $EDITOR key binding for your browser.

Alternately, you can compose in your preferred editor and copy-paste the result into the web page.

Realize that Fossil forums allow email subscription of posted messages, so from a pure reading standpoint, it’s not much different than with Mailman.

Based on my archives, you post to this list about once every 3 weeks on average.  I dearly hope that you have no problems greater than a slight inconvenience at that frequency.

> I also fear the loss of reading quality
> in my email client as Markdown-isms or html content take hold.

Fossil forums use Markdown by default, and experience on the Fossil Forum shows that most people either post in plain text or with minimal Markdown syntax.

Markdown syntax in forum posts is generally not much different than what you’d find in regular plain text email messages, such as *emphasis* and some way of posting URLs.

Keep in mind that Markdown is basically a formalization of existing text communication practices going back decades.  It is not a wholly new syntax.

Fossil's forum feature does *not* allow arbitrary HTML.

Both Markdown and Fossil Wiki syntaxes allow some minimal HTML, but you usually only see that used when the main markup syntax doesn’t allow a thing to be done.  And that rarely.

> I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
> anti-spam features are present.

It’s in the docs:

  https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/antibot.wiki

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Petite Abeille-2
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3


> On Mar 12, 2020, at 21:17, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> a replacement for this mailing list:

Tragic. Oh well. Anyhow, thanks for SQLite itself :)

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Domingo Alvarez Duarte
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Hello Richard !

I like the concept of fossil including the forum functionality !

With that said we are in a database forum and most of us know that one
common problem/task with databases is migration, there is any
plan/attempt to migrate the actual mailing list to the new fossil forum ?

That would be a good way to see how the fossil forum would perform with
some non trivial amount of data and would be an example that can attract
more users/conversions from other forum platforms.

Cheers !

On 12/3/20 21:17, Richard Hipp wrote:

> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
>
>      https://sqlite.org/forum
>      https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac
>
> Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
> forum will eventually replace this mailing list.
>
> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
> Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
> second link above for more information.
>
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

BohwaZ
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Kia ora,

Like with the Fossil list I did subscribe and switch to the forum, but
wouldn't it be possible to add the ability in Fossil to handle incoming
email replies to forum posts?

So that people wishing to use emails could still do it by subscribing
to alerts and then replying to notifications.

It would be a perfect solution for my use of Fossil as well.

Would that feature would be accepted in Fossil if someone (probably not
me, I lack the time right now sorry) would submit a patch?

Cheers.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Keith Medcalf
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3

Uck.  That is the most horrible looking thing I have ever seen in my life.  Good luck with it.


--
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: sqlite-users <[hidden email]> On
>Behalf Of Richard Hipp
>Sent: Thursday, 12 March, 2020 15:29
>To: SQLite mailing list <[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is
>deprecated
>
>On 3/12/20, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
>> anti-spam features are present.
>
>I will be happy to discuss that, and any other questions you have, on
>the Forum.  :-)
>
>--
>D. Richard Hipp
>[hidden email]
>_______________________________________________
>sqlite-users mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users



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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Petite Abeille-2
In reply to this post by BohwaZ


> On Mar 13, 2020, at 00:54, BohwaZ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So that people wishing to use emails could still do it by subscribing
> to alerts and then replying to notifications.

Also, would it be possible to actually mark such emails to include proper List Header Fields, e.g.:

   List-Id: List Header Mailing List <list-header.example.com>
   List-Help: <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=help>
   List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=unsubscribe>
   List-Subscribe: <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=subscribe>
   List-Post: <mailto:[hidden email]>
   List-Owner: <mailto:[hidden email]> (Contact Person for Help)
   List-Archive: <mailto:[hidden email]?subject=index%20list>


https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5983 

Anyway, tried the forum 'notification'. Very subpar, much like the entire 'forum' experience. Unsubscribed. To each their own I guess.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Petite Abeille-2
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf


> On Mar 13, 2020, at 01:04, Keith Medcalf <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Uck.  That is the most horrible looking thing I have ever seen in my life.  Good luck with it.

If only this was confine to the esthetics. But yes, horrible sums it up.

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

J. King-3
In reply to this post by Petite Abeille-2
On March 12, 2020 8:06:47 p.m. EDT, Petite Abeille <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>Also, would it be possible to actually mark such emails to include
>proper List Header Fields, e.g.:

I had the same thought, but would that really be appropriate? Unless you could post to it like a list, anyway.
--
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Jens Alfke-2
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3


> On Mar 12, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:

Oh crap.

> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  

I appreciate that you like to 'eat your own dog food'. However, I strongly disagree with your using a homemade forum rather than something like Discourse.

In a messaging system, the user interface is critically important. I don't think it matters much whether the SQLite forum can render a page in "about 0.003s" as it says in the footer. What's important is usability — following discussions, finding new content, reading it, and composing messages.

There's a reason many people cling to mailing lists as their preferred messaging system: email clients have evolved for nearly 50 years to be good messaging clients. If you like mail apps there are really good ones like Apple Mail and Outlook, if you like using a website then Gmail etc. are pretty good, and if you're a CLI guy there are great terminal-based ones.

It's very easy to slap together some HTML tables and textareas and have a functional forum GUI. It will suck, though. The kind of things that make web-based forums work well are difficult to do, and in my experience there are few implementations that really work well — the only ones that come to mind are Discourse, Google Groups, and groups.io <http://groups.io/>.

In a nutshell: by building a forum you're moving way outside your core competency. It would be wiser to outsource this to a product that's been built for this purpose by people who are really good at it.

Personally, I don't have SQLite questions all that often. I hang out in the mailing list because it's easy to follow it in my email client and it's convenient to post and reply. The forum, from my brief experience today, is really awkward. I may not be showing up there very often.

—Jens
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

J. King-3
On March 12, 2020 8:15:15 p.m. EDT, Jens Alfke <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>> On Mar 12, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing
>list:
>
>Oh crap.
>
>> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  
>
>I appreciate that you like to 'eat your own dog food'. However, I
>strongly disagree with your using a homemade forum rather than
>something like Discourse.

I will never be able to understand how anyone could hold up Discourse as superior to, well, anything. It's slow, it has poor UI feedback, and it surprises me continually.

So far the SQLite forum seems fine enough to me (though I would have definitely preferred the mailing list continue), and definitely better than Discourse.

To each their own, though!

--
J. King
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Warren Young
In reply to this post by Jens Alfke-2
On Mar 12, 2020, at 6:15 PM, Jens Alfke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I strongly disagree with your using a homemade forum rather than something like Discourse.

Unlike SQLite proper, the Fossil project accepts outside contributions without a whole lot of gatekeeping.  I myself have made a few improvements to Fossil, including to its forum feature.

> What's important is usability — following discussions

The stock CSS for Fossil forums color threads with new posts differently.  There’s message threading, and there’s email alerts on top of that so you can continue to use your preferred MUA to follow threads.

What more do you need?

> finding new content

Fossil’s built-in message searching capabilities are likely as good as those in your mail reader or in a mailing list manager.

And if you identify a lack, the person responsible for adding features to FTS5 is also the person you’re upset at for this change, so maybe he’ll be receptive to your wishes for improvement.

> reading it

…which you can continue to do in your mail reader.

> and composing messages.

What features do you need here?  Most email messages are short, so while a browser’s textarea control isn’t super powerful, it’s usually sufficient.

Between that and the power of Fossil flavored Markdown, I rarely find myself needing more power.  And I say that as one who’s been using Fossil forums since their inception.

> There's a reason many people cling to mailing lists as their preferred messaging system: email clients have evolved for nearly 50 years to be good messaging clients.

I’d say it’s more because email is a lingua franca for online communication, one of the few truly federated mechanisms, beholden to no single corporation for its existence.

And Fossil forums embraces email quite well on the outbound side.

If you think you can solve the inbound side as well, Fossil has the beginnings of an SMTP server in it already.  I think it’s a massive project, which explains why it’s unfinished, but it’s there for someone interested.

> In a nutshell: by building a forum you're moving way outside your core competency. It would be wiser to outsource this to a product that's been built for this purpose by people who are really good at it.

This isn’t brand new functionality.  It’s been baking for most of two years.  (The feature's approximate birthday is 2018-06-14.)

> Personally, I don't have SQLite questions all that often. I hang out in the mailing list because it's easy to follow it in my email client and it's convenient to post and reply.

…which you can still do with the new SQLite forum.

> The forum, from my brief experience today, is really awkward.

From my ~2 years of experience, it isn’t all that awkward.  It’s not whizzy, but it is functional and useful.

It’s worth noting that Fossil's forum feature also builds on several much older pieces of tech.  At a low level, Fossil forums are just specialized applications of the pre-existing wiki code!  Some of the stuff that underpins the forum feature goes back to its very roots.

This isn’t something drh just hacked up last weekend.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Stephen Chrzanowski
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
I've read a bunch of the posts here, and quite honestly, I'm kind of
looking forward to having Fossil send me notes that messages have been
added, then, if I want to reply, I just log into the site and do the
reply.  I'm not 100% sure about the anon sending to Fossil, if that's a
thing I thought I read somewhere, but at least my email address doesn't end
up in a public forum and find myself signed up to a dating site.  .. well..
at least until the mailing list is shut down.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 4:18 PM Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
>
>     https://sqlite.org/forum
>     https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac
>
> Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
> forum will eventually replace this mailing list.
>
> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
> Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
> second link above for more information.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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New SQLite Forum requires Javascript?

J.B. Nicholson-Owens
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Richard Hipp wrote:
> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
> Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.

Is there a way to use this without running the Javascript?
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Re: New SQLite Forum requires Javascript?

wmertens
Hi,

I normally wouldn't do this on the internet, but this mailing list
goes deep. Not sure how that will go now that we have to use the
forum, but here goes.

JavaScript makes websites much nicer to work with, by a wide margin,
especially those with lots of interaction like forums. Furthermore, it
is quite hard and expensive to make sites that work well with and
without JS.

Nowadays even microcontrollers can run JS - there are no browsers that
can't run JS, even the text based ones.

So IMHO, you are asking "please use time/money to achieve this state
that I prefer but that doesn't make a difference for the vast majority
of people".

Or am I missing something?

Wout.

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 4:19 AM J.B. Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Richard Hipp wrote:
> > The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
> > Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.
>
> Is there a way to use this without running the Javascript?
> _______________________________________________
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

wmertens
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
The nice thing about web browsers, you can apply your own styling.
There's extensions that help with that, like StyleBot.

Wout.

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 1:05 AM Keith Medcalf <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Uck.  That is the most horrible looking thing I have ever seen in my life.  Good luck with it.
>
>
> --
> The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: sqlite-users <[hidden email]> On
> >Behalf Of Richard Hipp
> >Sent: Thursday, 12 March, 2020 15:29
> >To: SQLite mailing list <[hidden email]>
> >Subject: Re: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is
> >deprecated
> >
> >On 3/12/20, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> I am wondering what (apparently invisible)
> >> anti-spam features are present.
> >
> >I will be happy to discuss that, and any other questions you have, on
> >the Forum.  :-)
> >
> >--
> >D. Richard Hipp
> >[hidden email]
> >_______________________________________________
> >sqlite-users mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
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123