New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

wmertens
On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 1:15 AM Jens Alfke <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > On Mar 12, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
>
> Oh crap.
>
> > The Forum is powered by Fossil.
>
> I appreciate that you like to 'eat your own dog food'. However, I strongly disagree with your using a homemade forum rather than something like Discourse.

Normally I would say the same, but it's insane how much faster the
Fossil Forum is than Discourse.

I'd say this is a great showcase of SQLite's prowess, and while the
interface is decidedly engineerish, it's very usable. I look forward
to seeing it in action!
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

ingo
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Can we clone (push, pull, sync) the forum fossil?

Ingo

On 12-3-2020 21:17, Richard Hipp wrote:
> The Forum is powered by Fossil.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Rowan Worth-2
In reply to this post by Jens Alfke-2
On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 08:15, Jens Alfke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In a messaging system, the user interface is critically important.


Agree absolutely!

I don't think it matters much whether the SQLite forum can render a page in
> "about 0.003s" as it says in the footer.


But I take issue with this -- I find latency is a critical part of a user
interface, and the vast majority of websites and mobile apps I encounter
just get worse and worse in this area. Granted most of that is probably not
rendering time, but I find it incredibly frustrating having to wait for
billions of cycles for the UI to get ready to accept my input.

What's important is usability — following discussions, finding new content,
> reading it, and composing messages.

<snip>

The forum, from my brief experience today, is really awkward.
>

I can't figure out what you're actually objecting to, because the
information currently on the forum seems be arranged sensibly and fit the
criteria of being easy to read and follow.

Finding content is impossible to assess at present, although the search
functionality seems broken -- which I posted about and the composition
process was painless.

-Rowan
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Peter da Silva-2
In reply to this post by Warren Young
What do you mean there have been "just a few threads" in the mailing list?
I can barely keep up with it.
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Re: New SQLite Forum requires Javascript?

J Decker
In reply to this post by wmertens
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 10:32 PM Wout Mertens <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I normally wouldn't do this on the internet, but this mailing list
> goes deep. Not sure how that will go now that we have to use the
> forum, but here goes.
>
> JavaScript makes websites much nicer to work with, by a wide margin,
> especially those with lots of interaction like forums. Furthermore, it
> is quite hard and expensive to make sites that work well with and
> without JS.
>
> Nowadays even microcontrollers can run JS - there are no browsers that
> can't run JS, even the text based ones.
>
> So IMHO, you are asking "please use time/money to achieve this state
> that I prefer but that doesn't make a difference for the vast majority
> of people".
>
> Or am I missing something?
>

Lynx doesn't support JS...  (it's the only one I know)

 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9353519/lynx-with-javascript

http://elinks.or.cz/  is another text based browser   (from that)
a little more searching there's https://www.brow.sh/


> Wout.
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 4:19 AM J.B. Nicholson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Richard Hipp wrote:
> > > The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
> > > Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.
> >
> > Is there a way to use this without running the Javascript?
> > _______________________________________________
> > sqlite-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Tim Streater-3
In reply to this post by Peter da Silva-2
On 13 Mar 2020, at 09:35, Peter da Silva <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What do you mean there have been "just a few threads" in the mailing list?
> I can barely keep up with it.

As a lurker I can say that this mailing list suits just fine. Another forum means another username/password I have to manage. On a list, the contributions come in date order which is easier to manage than, rather than as with a forum, having them grouped by thread. In fact, with this list, there's no management at all required. An advantage of writing one's own email client is extra added features which are just right for me: I can limit the size of a mailbox to a certain number of mails. For the sqlite list, it's 10k mails. More than that and the oldest get moved to the Trash automatically.

It's all I need.


--
Cheers  --  Tim
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Dominique Devienne
In reply to this post by Keith Medcalf
On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 1:05 AM Keith Medcalf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Uck.  That is the most horrible looking thing I have ever seen in my
> life.  Good luck with it.
>

I truly hope Keith you'll continue making your tremendous contributions to
the SQLite community.

Things will inevitably move over to the Forum I'm afraid, but I'd
rather you registered to the forum
(one time setup, with email notifications) and replied on the (deprecated)
ML, rather than having
none your usual insightful answers because you decided to stay exclusively
on the ML (or worse,
if you completely gave up on both). FWIW. --DD

PS: I kinda recall the prospect of switching to a forum wasn't exactly well
received last time it
  was discussed on this ML, and especially so from "heavyweights" of this
ML, it's thus disappointing
  Richard forced that switch on us.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Kees Nuyt
In reply to this post by Tim Streater-3
On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:09:38 +0000, you wrote:

>On 13 Mar 2020, at 09:35, Peter da Silva <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> What do you mean there have been "just a few threads" in the mailing list?
>> I can barely keep up with it.
>
> As a lurker I can say that this mailing list suits just
> fine. Another forum means another username/password I have
> to manage.

I'm mostly a lurker myself. I lurk many mailing lists, all
require a username/password. One more doesn't matter much.
My experience with the fossil-forum is positive, it has not
changed my reading habits. I just subscribed to its email
notifications, and I get everything threaded in the same way
as a mailing list.

> On a list, the contributions come in date order
> which is easier to manage than, rather than as with a forum,
> having them grouped by thread. In fact, with this list,
> there's no management at all required. An advantage of
> writing one's own email client is extra added features which
> are just right for me: I can limit the size of a mailbox to
> a certain number of mails. For the sqlite list, it's 10k
> mails. More than that and the oldest get moved to the Trash
> automatically.
> It's all I need.

With a subscription to email notifications of the sqlite-forum
you can lurk in just the same way as the sqlite-users mailing list.
Threaded or in date order, whatever your email client supports.
Just try it, your worries will vanish soon.

--
Regards,
Kees Nuyt
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Ling, Andy
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
> Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the forum will eventually replace this mailing list.

Having just had a go at subscribing, I screwed up and mistyped my email address.
Is there any way for me to change it?

Regards

Andy Ling


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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Mike King-6
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
As an occasional poster I like the idea of a forum as for me it's easier to
dip in and follow threads (after lots of years of using System.Data.Sqlite
I'm reluctantly moving over to using the Microsoft drivers because it
supports EF Core).

For the look and feel, it's plain but it's functional. I'm reminded of the
quote from Deng Xiaoping  "No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat;
as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat."

Cheers,

Mike

On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 20:18, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:
>
>     https://sqlite.org/forum
>     https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac
>
> Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
> forum will eventually replace this mailing list.
>
> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
> Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
> second link above for more information.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

dirdi-2
In reply to this post by Dominique Devienne
Since Fossil was founded and is developed by drh as well, this step was
not that unpredictable.

If you compare the forum to the mailing list the only drawback I can see
is that one is no longer able to contribute via mail:

               | Mailing list | Forum
---------------+--------------+-------------
Web Interface  | Read [0]     | Read & Write
Mail Interface | Read & Write | Read

Like BohwaZ already suggested, this could be mitigated by making it
> possible to add the ability in Fossil to handle incoming
> email replies to forum posts?
>
> So that people wishing to use emails could still do it by subscribing
> to alerts and then replying to notifications.

Of course only mails by registered users should be accepted, to keep
spam low.

Maybe someone wants to open a feature request over at the Fossil SCM
forum for this [1].

my 2 cent

[0] https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@.../
[1] https://fossil-scm.org/forum/forum
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

curmudgeon
In reply to this post by Dominique Devienne
  *   I truly hope Keith you'll continue making your tremendous contributions to
the SQLite community.



Ditto.



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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Jose Isaias Cabrera-4

x, on Friday, March 13, 2020 09:01 AM, wrote...
>
> * I truly hope Keith you'll continue making your tremendous contributions
> to
> the SQLite community.
>
I would say to the SQL world.

josé
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Huỳnh Trần Khanh
No. Web-based forums are terrible. I prefer mailing lists. I can
filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
forward them to a friend, &c. The same experience **can't be
replicated** on a web-based forum. Also the styling is terrible.

At the very least I'd love a feature where I could subscribe to the
forum and interact with the forum in the same way I would with mailing
lists.

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 8:14 PM Jose Isaias Cabrera <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> x, on Friday, March 13, 2020 09:01 AM, wrote...
> >
> > * I truly hope Keith you'll continue making your tremendous contributions
> > to
> > the SQLite community.
> >
> I would say to the SQL world.
>
> josé
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Re: New SQLite Forum requires Javascript?

Warren Young
In reply to this post by J.B. Nicholson-Owens
On Mar 12, 2020, at 9:19 PM, J.B. Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard Hipp wrote:
>> The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
>> Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.
>
> Is there a way to use this without running the Javascript?

It should be, but I lack the time right now to test it.  What I can do is point you to our documentation on how Fossil uses Javascript now:

    https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/js-use-doc/www/javascript.md

If there’s some problem that prevents you from using the forum without JavaScript, we’ll certainly consider it a significant issue to be addressed.

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Richard Hipp-3
In reply to this post by Huỳnh Trần Khanh
On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [On a mailing nlist] I can
> filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
> forward them to a friend, &c.

You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
list, so anything you can do with content received from a mailing list
can also be done with content from the forum.  But there are many
things that the forum provides that a mailing list does now.  For
example, if you want an archive of the forum activity, you can clone
the entire history with one command:

    fossil clone https://sqlite.org/forum sqlite-forum.fossil

Then periodically "sync" to keep your private archive up-to-date.  Now
you have all historical content, neatly packaged in an SQL database.
You can extract and search and manage the content in this archive in
any way you want.

The only thing that you can do with a mailing list that the SQLite
Forum does not allow is to submit new postings via email.  You must
use the web interface in order to post a message.  In my experience,
this forces people to take a little extra time to think about what
they are saying, and to format and arrange their thoughts for clarity,
and hence results in a better experience for the readers.

There are other important features that the forum provides that
mailinglists typically do not:

1.  You can format your postings using Markdown

2.  You can add hyperlinks to your postings that are consistently
displayed and are not dependent on the idiosyncrasies of various email
clients.

3.  You can edit prior posts to fix typos or mistakes.

4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.

5.  It is much easier to contribute anonymously to a web-based forum
than it is to contribute on a mailing list.  There is no verification
process to go through.  You just type in what you want to say and
press "Submit".

6.  Moderators have much better control over spam and other malicious content.

The first point (use of Markdown) is the killer feature for me.  There
was a recent thread on this mailing list that involved people posting
EXPLAIN output.  That text gets hopelessly jumbled on most email
readers.  If those messages had been formatted with Markdown, they
would have been much easier to read and understand.

I've been using both this mailing list and the Forum on Fossil
regularly for two years now.  The forum is so much nicer that I have
come to dread having to work with the legacy mailing list, at least
for complex subjects.  It is time for a switch to better technology.
--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: New SQLite Forum requires Javascript?

Richard Hipp-3
In reply to this post by Warren Young
On 3/13/20, Warren Young <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>
>> Is there a way to use this without running the Javascript?
>
> It should be, but I lack the time right now to test it.  What I can do is
> point you to our documentation on how Fossil uses Javascript now:
>
>     https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/js-use-doc/www/javascript.md
>
> If there’s some problem that prevents you from using the forum without
> JavaScript, we’ll certainly consider it a significant issue to be addressed.

As far as I know, the forum only uses javascript to scroll to the most
recent posting when you load a new thread.  So if you don't mind
scrolling manually, I think everything else will just work.  Did you
try it?

--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Philip Bennefall
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Hi Richard,


Is there a solution in the pipeline for the inaccessible captcha in the
forum for visually impaired users? I brought this up when the forum was
first released and you kindly created an account manually for me, but it
doesn't seem as though the problem was actually solved in the system
itself. I just tried to create an account on the SqLite forum, but could
not. The absolute majority of captcha systems offer some kind of audio
version now, which is very important for me and other blind users.


Kind regards,


Philip Bennefall


On 3/13/2020 4:22 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

> On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> [On a mailing nlist] I can
>> filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
>> forward them to a friend, &c.
> You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
> is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
> list, so anything you can do with content received from a mailing list
> can also be done with content from the forum.  But there are many
> things that the forum provides that a mailing list does now.  For
> example, if you want an archive of the forum activity, you can clone
> the entire history with one command:
>
>      fossil clone https://sqlite.org/forum sqlite-forum.fossil
>
> Then periodically "sync" to keep your private archive up-to-date.  Now
> you have all historical content, neatly packaged in an SQL database.
> You can extract and search and manage the content in this archive in
> any way you want.
>
> The only thing that you can do with a mailing list that the SQLite
> Forum does not allow is to submit new postings via email.  You must
> use the web interface in order to post a message.  In my experience,
> this forces people to take a little extra time to think about what
> they are saying, and to format and arrange their thoughts for clarity,
> and hence results in a better experience for the readers.
>
> There are other important features that the forum provides that
> mailinglists typically do not:
>
> 1.  You can format your postings using Markdown
>
> 2.  You can add hyperlinks to your postings that are consistently
> displayed and are not dependent on the idiosyncrasies of various email
> clients.
>
> 3.  You can edit prior posts to fix typos or mistakes.
>
> 4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.
>
> 5.  It is much easier to contribute anonymously to a web-based forum
> than it is to contribute on a mailing list.  There is no verification
> process to go through.  You just type in what you want to say and
> press "Submit".
>
> 6.  Moderators have much better control over spam and other malicious content.
>
> The first point (use of Markdown) is the killer feature for me.  There
> was a recent thread on this mailing list that involved people posting
> EXPLAIN output.  That text gets hopelessly jumbled on most email
> readers.  If those messages had been formatted with Markdown, they
> would have been much easier to read and understand.
>
> I've been using both this mailing list and the Forum on Fossil
> regularly for two years now.  The forum is so much nicer that I have
> come to dread having to work with the legacy mailing list, at least
> for complex subjects.  It is time for a switch to better technology.

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Richard Hipp-3
On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there a solution in the pipeline for the inaccessible captcha in the
> forum for visually impaired users?

The solution is for you to send me a private email asking for me to
create your account for you, as doing that is way, way easier than
trying to engineer an audible captcha.

--
D. Richard Hipp
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Philip Bennefall
If you are comfortable doing that for any blind users who stop by, then
of course that would be a quick fix. But it feels like taking a step
backwards, from being able to subscribe without assistance to having to
contact the author of whatever Fossil forum this applies to. I submitted
a thread a while back offering to work on an audio captcha for Fossil,
but cannot locate the exact post. I did not receive much response at the
time, but am wondering if this would be of interest?

Thanks!

Kind regards,

Philip Bennefall
On 3/13/2020 4:53 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:
> On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Is there a solution in the pipeline for the inaccessible captcha in the
>> forum for visually impaired users?
> The solution is for you to send me a private email asking for me to
> create your account for you, as doing that is way, way easier than
> trying to engineer an audible captcha.
>

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123