New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Jay Kreibich

> On Mar 13, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> [On a mailing nlist] I can
>> filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
>> forward them to a friend, &c.
>
> You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
> is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
> list,

I’m not sure I’d agree with that.  People tend to quote when replying to mail, even if just one line, to provide context.  That’s a lot less true of the forums, especially if you’re responding to a one line question or comment on the message right above yours.   Since the forum emails only quote the new message, there is much less context in any given message.  Part of why I like email lists is that they may be old school, but people that use them well make sure there is very very little state in the conversation.  That’s the exact opposite with forum posts.

I’m not saying the forum isn’t better for the team, simply that they’re not equal.  And at the end of the day, forums must be engaged in actively (I need to go visit it), while email is passive (it comes to me in a media I scan regularly).  For someone that is largely a lurker these days, it was easy to just watch messages go by and jump in if needed, having most of the context of the conversation.  With a forum, the email notifications are much less useful (and less likely to trigger the “Oh, I know that..” response), and I’m never going to go visit the forum just to see what’s up.

This might be better for the community, but it largely means I’m out of the community.  I’m not sure that’s a particular loss for me, or the community, as I’ve not been very active for a decade or so.

  -j


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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Richard Hipp-3
In reply to this post by Philip Bennefall
On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I submitted
> a thread a while back offering to work on an audio captcha for Fossil,

I don't recall that thread.  But if you want to submit code that
generates an audio file of some kind that speaks the text of a Fossil
Captcha, that would be great.  I will build it into the system,
assuming it works, does not have onerous external dependencies, and
you can get me a signed CLA.

--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Philip Bennefall
I am happy to do that, but I can't promise any kind of timeline as it
will have to be in my free time only. Can't really sign well, though, as
I am totally blind. But I guess we'll cross that bridge if I come up
with a working audio captcha solution.

I'll have a look at the Fossil captcha code this evening and write back
if I have questions. Should I write to you directly, or to the Fossil forum?

Thanks!

Philip


On 3/13/2020 5:16 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:
> On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I submitted
>> a thread a while back offering to work on an audio captcha for Fossil,
> I don't recall that thread.  But if you want to submit code that
> generates an audio file of some kind that speaks the text of a Fossil
> Captcha, that would be great.  I will build it into the system,
> assuming it works, does not have onerous external dependencies, and
> you can get me a signed CLA.
>

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Richard Hipp-3
On 3/13/20, Philip Bennefall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Should I write to you directly, or to the Fossil forum?

Either one (or both) will be fine.
--
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Re: New SQLite Forum requires Javascript?

J.B. Nicholson-Owens
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Richard Hipp wrote:
> As far as I know, the forum only uses javascript to scroll to the most
> recent posting when you load a new thread.  So if you don't mind
> scrolling manually, I think everything else will just work.  Did you
> try it?

I did try it and your description does not match my experience.

Here's what I tried: I visited https://sqlite.org/forum which redirected me to
https://sqlite.org/forum/forummain and there I see a list of "Most recent threads"
with a table of (I assume) recent threads and text at the bottom telling me how long
it took to generate that page.

But every link in that table which would (again I assume) point to a page with that
thread's text instead points to https://sqlite.org/forum/honeypot . Visiting
https://sqlite.org/forum/honeypot returns a 1-paragraph page which says "Please
enable javascript or log in to see this content".

Hence I don't get to read the threads from the thread table.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Huỳnh Trần Khanh
In reply to this post by Jay Kreibich
> I’m not sure I’d agree with that.  People tend to quote when replying to mail, even if just one line, to provide context.  That’s a lot less true of the forums, especially if you’re responding to a one line question or comment on the message right above yours.   Since the forum emails only quote the new message, there is much less context in any given message.  Part of why I like email lists is that they may be old school, but people that use them well make sure there is very very little state in the conversation.  That’s the exact opposite with forum posts.

Couldn't agree more. I am a teenager who has to go to school and
attend classes regularly, and some of the days I am very, very busy.
The natural quoting style ubiquitous in emails means that I can
quickly scan through the message without missing much context. At the
end of the day I need to be productive.


On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 11:15 PM Jay Kreibich <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> [On a mailing nlist] I can
> >> filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
> >> forward them to a friend, &c.
> >
> > You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
> > is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
> > list,
>
> I’m not sure I’d agree with that.  People tend to quote when replying to mail, even if just one line, to provide context.  That’s a lot less true of the forums, especially if you’re responding to a one line question or comment on the message right above yours.   Since the forum emails only quote the new message, there is much less context in any given message.  Part of why I like email lists is that they may be old school, but people that use them well make sure there is very very little state in the conversation.  That’s the exact opposite with forum posts.
>
> I’m not saying the forum isn’t better for the team, simply that they’re not equal.  And at the end of the day, forums must be engaged in actively (I need to go visit it), while email is passive (it comes to me in a media I scan regularly).  For someone that is largely a lurker these days, it was easy to just watch messages go by and jump in if needed, having most of the context of the conversation.  With a forum, the email notifications are much less useful (and less likely to trigger the “Oh, I know that..” response), and I’m never going to go visit the forum just to see what’s up.
>
> This might be better for the community, but it largely means I’m out of the community.  I’m not sure that’s a particular loss for me, or the community, as I’ve not been very active for a decade or so.
>
>   -j
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
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Re: New SQLite Forum requires Javascript?

Richard Hipp-3
In reply to this post by J.B. Nicholson-Owens
On 3/13/20, J.B. Nicholson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But every link in that table which would (again I assume) point to a page
> with that
> thread's text instead points to https://sqlite.org/forum/honeypot .

Ah.  That's the anti-robot defense mechanism.  See
https://fossil-scm.org/fossil/doc/trunk/www/antibot.wiki for details.

Since the Forum does not (yet) have diffs and annotations and tarballs
and all the other features of Fossil that cause mindless robots to
burn CPU cycles on the server, I suppose I can disable that mechanism
for the Forum, which I have now done.

Please try again.
--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Thomas Kurz
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list and vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)


----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hipp <[hidden email]>
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020, 21:17:59
Subject: [sqlite] New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

I have set up an on-line forum as a replacement for this mailing list:

    https://sqlite.org/forum
    https://www.sqlite.org/forum/forumpost/a6a27d79ac

Please consider subscribing to the new Forum.  The intent is that the
forum will eventually replace this mailing list.

The Forum is powered by Fossil.  It has been in active use in the
Fossil community for a couple of years, and has worked well.  See the
second link above for more information.

--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Puneet Kishor-2
In a way it already does… not to the mailing list but to the email address of everyone registered on the forum. The key thing you can’t do is post via email.

My personal view is there never be a solution that will please everyone. But it is Richard’s software and Richard’s game, and we have to take his word that the web-based forum is better and give it a chance. That way we can focus on solving SQLite-related problems instead of web/email/forum related problems.

Fwiw, I like the new forum because of the few key differences already mentioned by Richard – editing, formatting, threading (and don’t like a few things – readability, styling – but these can be tweaked). I know many don’t like it, but that is how it is. I hope we can give the new forum a chance.

> On Mar 13, 2020, at 7:50 PM, Thomas Kurz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list and vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)

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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Simon Slavin-3
In reply to this post by Thomas Kurz
On 13 Mar 2020, at 6:50pm, Thomas Kurz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list and vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)

I think one of the objectives of moving away from email is to prevent email spam.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Jim "Jed" Dodgen
Another lurker here ...
I have always preferred mailing lists and found forums to be too fat.  That
said, I like the fossil forum.  It was referred to bring a "enginerish"
style which is fine given the audience
Kudos for its speed and light weight,  No fluff just data.

Jim "Jed" Dodgen
[hidden email]


On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:24 PM Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 13 Mar 2020, at 6:50pm, Thomas Kurz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list
> and vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)
>
> I think one of the objectives of moving away from email is to prevent
> email spam.
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
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>
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Michael Falconer
Ah....the inevitable becomes reality. I knew when this stuff surfaced a few
years back that it was not going to go away, and this outcome was just a
matter of time. Not a great a great shock as a life in programming has seen
so much change. I don't need to Fossil, because I am one. Also a bit of a
lurker who has enjoyed lurking here for years because of the excellent
standard of technical replies and the interesting banter that evolves from
differing technical opinions. So I'll take the opportunity now to thank
(too many to single out) the many contributors to this list who have made
it unique, and well...just a nice place to be.

So while you are all off playing with your interface, javascript forum
thingy's I guess I'll have to find somewhere else to go. You'll notice I
did not mention any specific technical objections and that's because
sometimes (even in I.T.) it's just not about the tech! Can't help feeling
that someone just shot my dog!



On Sat, 14 Mar 2020 at 07:01, Jim Dodgen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Another lurker here ...
> I have always preferred mailing lists and found forums to be too fat.  That
> said, I like the fossil forum.  It was referred to bring a "enginerish"
> style which is fine given the audience
> Kudos for its speed and light weight,  No fluff just data.
>
> Jim "Jed" Dodgen
> [hidden email]
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 12:24 PM Simon Slavin <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 6:50pm, Thomas Kurz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Why can't the forum just forward all new postings to this mailing list
> > and vice versa? Then everyone could chose what to use ;)
> >
> > I think one of the objectives of moving away from email is to prevent
> > email spam.
> > _______________________________________________
> > sqlite-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
> >
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>


--
Regards,
     Michael.j.Falconer.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Petite Abeille-2


> On Mar 13, 2020, at 23:09, Michael Falconer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So I'll take the opportunity now to thank (too many to single out) the many contributors to this list who have made it unique, and well...just a nice place to be.

So long, and thanks for all the fish :)

Will miss this place. Good bye and good luck to all. Take care.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

nomad
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On Fri Mar 13, 2020 at 11:22:46AM -0400, Richard Hipp wrote:
> On 3/13/20, Huỳnh Trần Khanh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > [On a mailing nlist] I can
> > filter the posts, sort them, search through them, archive them,
> > forward them to a friend, &c.
>
> You can do all of that with the SQLite Forum.  Remember, all content
> is still delivered directly to your in-box, just like with a mailing
> list, so anything you can do with content received from a mailing list
> can also be done with content from the forum.  But there are many

By chance or by design most emails to this list, like yours above, came
wrapped at a length suitable for text-based readers. Yet every message
I've received from the forum is a shocking cut-words-in-half affair in
my terminal.  There have been several other topics raised already on
the forum about the email format. Your statements above and below imply
that the only thing list users will miss is composing, but that is a
clearly premature position to take.

> things that the forum provides that a mailing list does now.  For
> example, if you want an archive of the forum activity, you can clone
> the entire history with one command:
> ..
> Then periodically "sync" to keep your private archive up-to-date.  Now
> you have all historical content, neatly packaged in an SQL database.
> You can extract and search and manage the content in this archive in
> any way you want.

Not something I've ever needed or would want to dedicate disk space
towards. Web-indexable contents enables search engines do a better job
of categorizing and linking than I could do, and don't want to spend
the time doing. What is the typical use case here?

> use the web interface in order to post a message.  In my experience,
> this forces people to take a little extra time to think about what
> they are saying, and to format and arrange their thoughts for clarity,
> and hence results in a better experience for the readers.

Posting too early is not something I can say I've noticed many people
doing.

> There are other important features that the forum provides that
> mailinglists typically do not:
>
> 1.  You can format your postings using Markdown

Useful to those who prefer to read messages in a browser, I guess. Not
much of an advantage to those who prefer to read text. My client
doesn't seem to mangle EXPLAIN output like yours does.

> 2.  You can add hyperlinks to your postings that are consistently
> displayed and are not dependent on the idiosyncrasies of various
> email clients.

I don't quite understand this one.

> 3.  You can edit prior posts to fix typos or mistakes.

Fair enough.

> 4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.

That is a mailing list configuration item, not a core difference
between a list and a forum.

> 5.  It is much easier to contribute anonymously to a web-based forum
> than it is to contribute on a mailing list.  There is no verification
> process to go through.  You just type in what you want to say and
> press "Submit".

Fair enough, if having an open mailing list comes with too many other
costs.

> 6.  Moderators have much better control over spam and other malicious
> content.

Ok.

> The first point (use of Markdown) is the killer feature for me.  There
> was a recent thread on this mailing list that involved people posting
> EXPLAIN output.  That text gets hopelessly jumbled on most email
> readers.  If those messages had been formatted with Markdown, they
> would have been much easier to read and understand.
>
> I've been using both this mailing list and the Forum on Fossil
> regularly for two years now.  The forum is so much nicer that I have
> come to dread having to work with the legacy mailing list, at least
> for complex subjects.  It is time for a switch to better technology.

It is your project and your time spent managing the list (for which I
and many others are grateful) so your choice to make. I do however
think your approach was a little too fast and somewhat dismissive of
the concerns of subscribers and the cost to the community.

I would estimate that more around half of the value of this mailing
list come from discussion of topics outside of SQLite, and from several
key individuals willing to share their advanced knowledge and ideas.
That we will likely lose some of them, and/or the spontaneous
discussions that the mix of beginner and advanced, is a shame, and
could have been avoided.

--
Mark Lawrence
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Re: New SQLite Forum requires Javascript?

J.B. Nicholson-Owens
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Richard Hipp wrote:
> Please try again.

Thanks, this change allows me to read the articles.
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Jens Alfke-2
In reply to this post by nomad

> On Mar 15, 2020, at 4:54 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> By chance or by design most emails to this list, like yours above, came
> wrapped at a length suitable for text-based readers. Yet every message
> I've received from the forum is a shocking cut-words-in-half affair in
> my terminal.

There’s a long-established email line-break-encoding convention called “format-flowed” you can thank for that. It allows the encoded text to be broken into 72-column lines while still noting where the actual line breaks are.

This way those newfangled mail clients with the astonishing ability to reflow text to the user’s desired width — some even use futuristic “proportional fonts” that were recently invented in the 1400s — can work their crazy magic, while the typical user reading on a VT100 or Teletype is not inconvenienced.

Seriously, RFC822 email is chock full of little affordances and edge cases like this. It’s not the sort of thing one blithely wades into. That’s part of the reason I gave for leaving forum software implementation to the experts, or at least to those who’ve had years to fix these kinds of mistakes.

—Jens
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

James K. Lowden
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:22:46 -0400
Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.

While I have no illusions of altering the online trajectory of this ML,
I'd like to point out that email addresses foster community.

Studies and experience both show that the incidental availability of
email addresses invites the formation of new relationships through
off-list communication. Speaking for myself, that opportunity has
manifested several new connections and even professional
opportunities.  

I value those relationships.  I'm sorry this forum will cease to be a
place where new ones will develop.  

--jkl
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Re: New SQLite Forum established - this mailing list is deprecated

Domingo Alvarez Duarte
Hello James !

Definitely you've made a very good point !

Thumbs up !

Cheers !

On 16/3/20 17:37, James K. Lowden wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:22:46 -0400
> Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> 4.  Your email address is never displayed, even to subscribers.
> While I have no illusions of altering the online trajectory of this ML,
> I'd like to point out that email addresses foster community.
>
> Studies and experience both show that the incidental availability of
> email addresses invites the formation of new relationships through
> off-list communication. Speaking for myself, that opportunity has
> manifested several new connections and even professional
> opportunities.
>
> I value those relationships.  I'm sorry this forum will cease to be a
> place where new ones will develop.
>
> --jkl
> _______________________________________________
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