Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

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Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Simon Slavin-3
Those interested in SQLite might like to listen to

<https://changelog.com/201/>

Play on the page or download as an MP3.

Unusual information on Dr Hipp's early career, SQLite history, HWACI, and how come SQLite is free but the developers still manage to afford food and somewhere to sleep.

Question to ponder before you listen: Many of you know about tiny devices which incorporate SQLite but what do you think the biggest one is ?

Simon.
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Steve Schow
thanks for letting us know about that, thoroughly enjoyed listening….


On May 14, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Those interested in SQLite might like to listen to
>
> <https://changelog.com/201/>
>
> Play on the page or download as an MP3.
>
> Unusual information on Dr Hipp's early career, SQLite history, HWACI, and how come SQLite is free but the developers still manage to afford food and somewhere to sleep.
>
> Question to ponder before you listen: Many of you know about tiny devices which incorporate SQLite but what do you think the biggest one is ?
>

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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Stephen Chrzanowski
Just finished listening to it as well.

Dr Hipp, I know you don't like to toot your own horn, but, really, I'd
really like to hear where and when you're talking to other people about
SQLite and your other projects.  Really interesting info.


On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Steve Schow <[hidden email]> wrote:

> thanks for letting us know about that, thoroughly enjoyed listening….
>
>
> On May 14, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Those interested in SQLite might like to listen to
> >
> > <https://changelog.com/201/>
> >
> > Play on the page or download as an MP3.
> >
> > Unusual information on Dr Hipp's early career, SQLite history, HWACI,
> and how come SQLite is free but the developers still manage to afford food
> and somewhere to sleep.
> >
> > Question to ponder before you listen: Many of you know about tiny
> devices which incorporate SQLite but what do you think the biggest one is ?
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Roman Fleysher
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
Dear Richard,
Dear SQLiters,

Thank you, Simon, for sending the link. I would like to offer several comments on the podcast.

1. Why SQLite is popular.

Instead of describing how I selected SQLite to solve our DB needs, I will recount story of Sony, its introduction of transistor radio that I read in Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christensen. (Very good book and author, I recommend.)

First transistor radios were poor in sound quality compared to those based on vacuum tubes. But they were lite (misspelled intentionally), and small. They were bought by teenagers, because they were cheap and portable. The big radio manufacturers did not even consider transistor radios as competitors because traditional competition was based on sound quality, not portability. Over the years, transistor technology improved and all vacuum radio manufacturers disappeared.

Richard said: "We do not compete against Oracle, we compete against fopen()." This is true, just like transistors. But SQLite displaced many big DBs and now Oracle etc have smaller market share. If I apply ideas of Innovator's Dilemma, their market share will continue to shrink. (I am not an MBA, I am a physicist, could be wrong but looks reasonable.)

2. Job to do

This is related to 1, and to ideas I read in Clayton Christensen books.

Many SQL databases are very similar in what they can do, performance etc. Thus SQLite wins, just like Sony's first transistors, because it does NOT compete with them. It can not handle huge write concurrency or optimize for similar requests over history. Instead, it is easy to install and use. Its column types, affinity, makes SQLite suitable for both relational and entity–attribute–value models.

It turns out that many "customers" simply do not need the functionality and optimization offered by big DBs. Instead, like teenagers, they need portability, ease of use and set up. This solves the job. Big DBs are overkill for such "small" jobs, requiring a lot of learning and expense. But there are a LOT of these small jobs and SQLite solves them admirably.

3. Code rewrite, robustness, licensing

Code rewrite or static linking make the final product more robust. Robustness simplifies support and debugging. Robustness attracts users. We all want OUR thing to work and if our thing depends on SQLite, we want SQLite to be robust. And thus, the SQLite licensing.

4. Fossil and other in-house software

Writing your own code is driven by the lack of needed features in available products. In the beginning, Ford had to build its own metallurgy plant to ensure quality of metal. This and 3 above are integration of what is not good enough to make it good together. Over the years, metallurgy industry matured and Ford closed this division.

There are many other aspects in the podcast that I would like to comment. Even when Richard tells the story and many elements look accidental, they all fit into the timeline of unfolding disruptive innovation.

SQLite was and is a disruptive innovation. SQLite is not a toy.

Thank you for making it.


Roman


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Simon Slavin [[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 4:17 PM
To: SQLite mailing list
Subject: [sqlite] Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Those interested in SQLite might like to listen to

<https://changelog.com/201/>

Play on the page or download as an MP3.

Unusual information on Dr Hipp's early career, SQLite history, HWACI, and how come SQLite is free but the developers still manage to afford food and somewhere to sleep.

Question to ponder before you listen: Many of you know about tiny devices which incorporate SQLite but what do you think the biggest one is ?

Simon.
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Simon Slavin-3

On 15 May 2016, at 6:35am, Roman Fleysher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 1. Why SQLite is popular.

The answers to those question mentioned in the podcast may be good ones but I think the main reason is that it's free.  Completely, unmistakably, free.  You could make many changes to SQLite and people would continue to use it but the thing that would decrease its usage fastest would be to charge for it.

Nobody seems to mention this as an answer to that question.

Simon.
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

dandl
> > 1. Why SQLite is popular.
>
> The answers to those question mentioned in the podcast may be good ones
but I
> think the main reason is that it's free.  Completely, unmistakably, free.

Necessary but not sufficient.

It's free, and the licence is as non-restrictive as it is possible to be.

> You could make many changes to SQLite and people would continue to use it
but
> the thing that would decrease its usage fastest would be to charge for it.

Imposing licence conditions would come a close second. I'm not going to
mention GPL (or AGPL) but there are many conditions found in licence
agreements that run more than a para or two that would make it impossible to
use in particular applications.

Free AND non-restrictive licence is the killer combo for getting software
used, especially when it can be embedded.

> Nobody seems to mention this as an answer to that question.

Nobody wants to speak ill of more restrictive licence agreements either.

Regards
David M Bennett FACS

Andl - A New Database Language - andl.org





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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Tim Streater-3
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
On 15 May 2016 at 11:53, dandl <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> 1. Why SQLite is popular.
>>
>> The answers to those question mentioned in the podcast may be good ones
> but I
>> think the main reason is that it's free.  Completely, unmistakably, free.
>
> Necessary but not sufficient.
>
> It's free, and the licence is as non-restrictive as it is possible to be.

What's all this about licences. AIUI, SQLite is explicitly in the public domain. Meaning the question of licence doesn't arise.

--
Cheers  --  Tim

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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Stephan Beal-3
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Tim Streater <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What's all this about licences. AIUI, SQLite is explicitly in the public
> domain. Meaning the question of licence doesn't arise.
>

it does, actually, because PD is not recognized in all jurisdictions.

--
----- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
http://gplus.to/sgbeal
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

mikeegg1
I’m listening to the podcast now. Great episode and I’ve subscribed to their podcast series.
As a side thought of what I’ve listened to so far… Is there a page/reference/discussion about how the consortium was/is set up?
I am integrating SQLite into my Mac OS X application and like SQLite. I am curious how the consortium is organized.

Mike
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Simon Slavin-3

On 15 May 2016, at 2:14pm, mikeegg1 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As a side thought of what I’ve listened to so far… Is there a page/reference/discussion about how the consortium was/is set up?
> I am integrating SQLite into my Mac OS X application and like SQLite. I am curious how the consortium is organized.

You can read this page

<https://www.sqlite.org/consortium.html>

but there's more information on the consortium, how it came about, and what it's like now, in that podcast than I've seen anywhere else.

Simon.
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Scott Robison-2
In reply to this post by Tim Streater-3
On May 15, 2016 6:30 AM, "Tim Streater" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What's all this about licences. AIUI, SQLite is explicitly in the public
domain. Meaning the question of licence doesn't arise.

The question of license arises when comparing two pieces of software. While
PD isn't a license per se, it is license-esque, is the absolutely least
restrictive license possible (or at least that I can imagine), and is
(should be) easy to understand. It makes it easy to evaluate as long as you
are in a jurisdiction that recognizes PD and aren't dealing with nervous
lawyers.

A very complex license could be written that was conceptually equivalent to
PD. If so, PD would be the superior license from a comprehensibility POV.
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Tony Papadimitriou
In reply to this post by dandl
>> > 1. Why SQLite is popular.
>>
>> The answers to those question mentioned in the podcast may be good ones
>> but I
>> think the main reason is that it's free.  Completely, unmistakably, free.
>
>Necessary but not sufficient.
>It's free, and the license is as non-restrictive as it is possible to be.

Certainly true!  However, there are tons of free & liberally licensed
software out there, many (most?) of which are failures in terms of public
acceptance.

So, even these two alone do not seem to be entirely sufficient.

But SQLite has one greater attribute.  It comes with a proven commitment of
EXCELLENT support & maintenance.  A true quality product.  Bugs are killed
practically instantly after being discovered, and new features added on a
regular basis.  You rarely get this kind of support even from paid software.

(Many open source projects have bugs waiting for months or years for someone
to be bothered to fix, often driving people away!)

To sum it up, a big thanks to Richard and his team!

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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Scott Robison-2
On May 15, 2016 8:06 AM, "Tony Papadimitriou" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
> (Many open source projects have bugs waiting for months or years for
someone to be bothered to fix, often driving people away!)
>
> To sum it up, a big thanks to Richard and his team!

True. Last December I received a notice that a patch I submitted to a Trac
plugin had finally been accepted. Over seven years after I submitted it.
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Simon Slavin-3

On 15 May 2016, at 3:17pm, Scott Robison <[hidden email]> wrote:

> True. Last December I received a notice that a patch I submitted to a Trac
> plugin had finally been accepted. Over seven years after I submitted it.

I once submitted a bug report to Apple.  Four months later it was acknowledged as a duplicate as one already in their database.  (You can't look up bugs other people have submitted so I couldn't follow its progress.).  Seven years later it still isn't fixed.

Simon.
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Eric Rubin-Smith
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 4:17 PM, Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Those interested in SQLite might like to listen to
>
> <https://changelog.com/201/>
>

Having spent many years working directly in Richard's code and that of many
hundreds of other programmers, I consider Richard to be by far the best
programmer I have ever come across.  So it is always a pleasure to listen
to him talk about the craft.

I think the world would benefit from Richard spending more time on the
airwaves discussing particular design decisions he has made through the
years, lessons learned, etc.  Some qualified interviewer should get into
the weeds with him (perhaps on SQLite or perhaps some other thing Richard
thinks would be instructive) and try to download as much of Richard's
substantive thought on programming as possible.

Richard: when your contract is up in 2050 maybe you can write us a book.
Sort of a "War As I Knew It" but for programming.  :-)

And if any of you know of other programmer role models of Richard's
caliber, please do share pointers!

Eric
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Richard Hipp-3
On 5/16/16, Eric Rubin-Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard: when your contract is up in 2050 maybe you can write us a book.
> Sort of a "War As I Knew It" but for programming.  :-)
>

To be clear:  There is no contract.  Airbus purchased a small amount
of support assistance from us during the initial development of the
A350, but that ended before the airplane ever flew.  During the time
when they were an active customer, Airbus did say that they wanted us
to support SQLite for the life of the A350 airframe, but that is only
their desire and is not something they are actually paying for.

Sometime later, someone (I forget whom) asked about the end-of-life
for SQLite and I remembered the conversation with Airbus and how they
expected a 40-year lifetime.  The conversation with Airbus took place
in approximately 2010.  Hence, 2050 seemed like a good target
end-of-life date for SQLite.

I think the important point here is not the specific date, but rather
that our goal to build timeless software.  (That is the goal - I do
not claim that we have achieved it.)  My impression is that most
software these days has a design lifetime measured in months, not
decades.  I find that when you are thinking long-term, it changes your
perspective on which patches land on trunk.
--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Roger Binns
On 16/05/16 10:36, Richard Hipp wrote:
> I find that when you are thinking long-term, it changes your
> perspective on which patches land on trunk.

In addition to your (plural) fantastic work, saying yes/no is probably
by far the most important piece.  There are constant calls for things to
be added or changed, often with very good reasoning and benefits.  We
see it frequently on this list.  Saying no is hard, and isn't something
people like doing.

Yet striking the right balance is difficult.  If you don't do enough,
the project can end up left behind by the times.  And if you do too much
it becomes large, hard to use, complicated etc, often driving others to
make a simpler alternative, leaving the project behind.

Thanks!

Roger


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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Objective C
Hi sir,
In fact, i have an issue with SQLite database Restore using c#
i'm coding a button which can restore an existing SQLite database with '
*.db*' extension
i wonder if you can guide me please,
i'll ber very grateful
Sincerely yours
Hashim

2016-05-16 19:08 GMT+00:00 Roger Binns <[hidden email]>:

> On 16/05/16 10:36, Richard Hipp wrote:
> > I find that when you are thinking long-term, it changes your
> > perspective on which patches land on trunk.
>
> In addition to your (plural) fantastic work, saying yes/no is probably
> by far the most important piece.  There are constant calls for things to
> be added or changed, often with very good reasoning and benefits.  We
> see it frequently on this list.  Saying no is hard, and isn't something
> people like doing.
>
> Yet striking the right balance is difficult.  If you don't do enough,
> the project can end up left behind by the times.  And if you do too much
> it becomes large, hard to use, complicated etc, often driving others to
> make a simpler alternative, leaving the project behind.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Roger
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
>
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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Kees Nuyt
On Mon, 16 May 2016 19:14:01 +0000, Objective C
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi sir,
> In fact, i have an issue with SQLite database Restore using c#

That's not what this discussion thread is about, it would have
been better if you sterted a new thread, but anyway.

> i'm coding a button which can restore an existing
> SQLite database with '*.db*' extension.

> i wonder if you can guide me please,

Can you describe what you already tried, what happened, and what
made you think you didn't succeed?

There are (at least) two methods:
1- use the SQLite backup API
  See: www.sqlite.org/c3ref/backup_finish.html

2- copy the backup database over the database
  using file system operations

In the latter case you'll have to make sure
- the backup database is consistent and does not
  have a 'hot' journal
- the database you are going to overwrite is not
  used by any databse connection
- the journal of the database you are overwriting
  (if any) is removed.

> i'll ber very grateful
> Sincerely yours
> Hashim

--
Regards,

Kees Nuyt

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Re: Podcast with Dr Hipp: SQLite history, success and funding

Objective C
Thank you for your answer,
here is the code i used to backup my SQLite database :

var source = new SQLiteConnection("Data Source = MyDB.db ; Version = 3;");
var destination = new SQLiteConnection("Data Source = NewDBBackup.db;
Version = 3;");

source.Open();
destination.Open();

source.BackupDatabase(destination , "main", "main" , -1 , null , 0 );
source.Close();

2016-05-16 22:05 GMT+00:00 Kees Nuyt <[hidden email]>:

> On Mon, 16 May 2016 19:14:01 +0000, Objective C
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi sir,
> > In fact, i have an issue with SQLite database Restore using c#
>
> That's not what this discussion thread is about, it would have
> been better if you sterted a new thread, but anyway.
>
> > i'm coding a button which can restore an existing
> > SQLite database with '*.db*' extension.
>
> > i wonder if you can guide me please,
>
> Can you describe what you already tried, what happened, and what
> made you think you didn't succeed?
>
> There are (at least) two methods:
> 1- use the SQLite backup API
>   See: www.sqlite.org/c3ref/backup_finish.html
>
> 2- copy the backup database over the database
>   using file system operations
>
> In the latter case you'll have to make sure
> - the backup database is consistent and does not
>   have a 'hot' journal
> - the database you are going to overwrite is not
>   used by any databse connection
> - the journal of the database you are overwriting
>   (if any) is removed.
>
> > i'll ber very grateful
> > Sincerely yours
> > Hashim
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Kees Nuyt
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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