Regarding CoC

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
76 messages Options
1234
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Regarding CoC

Mantas Gridinas
Hi!

I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
2018-02-22.

Cheers
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Richard Hipp-3
On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> 2018-02-22.
>

Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
and everybody approved.

--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Andrew Brown
I looked it up, wondering what it would say, and I have to say, I love it.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:11 AM Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> > true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> > 2018-02-22.
> >
>
> Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
> a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
> came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
> and everybody approved.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
--
Andrew Brown
Senior Software Engineer, Data Delivery
[image: http://www.economicmodeling.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/logo.png]
Cell: 208-301-3354
www.economicmodeling.com <http://www.economicmodeling.com/>
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Simon Slavin-3
On 19 Oct 2018, at 6:26pm, Andrew Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I looked it up, wondering what it would say, and I have to say, I love it.

Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For those curious ...

<https://sqlite.org/codeofconduct.html>

Simon.
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Scott Perry
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
I have to admit I was a lot more excited about the concept of SQLite having a Code of Conduct until I actually read it. Regardless of the fact that I seem to fail a great many of its provisions, it seems fairly deaf—if not antagonistic—to the issues of our times that have created demand for such documents.

Scott

On Oct 19, 2018, at 7:11 AM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
>> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
>> 2018-02-22.
>>
>
> Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
> a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
> came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
> and everybody approved.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users

_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Dave Waters
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
As if I needed another reason for SQLite to be my favorite database.  Well
done.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:11 AM Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> > true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> > 2018-02-22.
> >
>
> Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
> a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
> came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
> and everybody approved.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>


--
Dave
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Mantas Gridinas
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
How come it hadn't yet?

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 20:30 Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 6:26pm, Andrew Brown <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I looked it up, wondering what it would say, and I have to say, I love
> it.
>
> Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For
> those curious ...
>
> <https://sqlite.org/codeofconduct.html>
>
> Simon.
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Roger Schlueter
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
There's no atheists/freethinkers at SQLite?

If the second half of 54 is observed, it would be a dreary world indeed.

Roger


On 10/19/2018 10:30, Simon Slavin wrote:

> On 19 Oct 2018, at 6:26pm, Andrew Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I looked it up, wondering what it would say, and I have to say, I love it.
> Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For those curious ...
>
> <https://sqlite.org/codeofconduct.html>
>
> Simon.
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users

_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

wmertens
In reply to this post by Scott Perry
Well in the preface it does say that full compliance is near impossible and
not required.

I wouldn't call it antagonistic, it has many rules that are very inclusive
of anyone.

I must say it's a bit messy though, there are quite a few rules and not all
of them are nicely orthogonal. Most of them boil down to Bill and Ted's "Be
excellent to each other", with a dash of YOLO and a plea to maximize your
karma score. I can live with that.

Wout.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 8:34 PM Scott Perry <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have to admit I was a lot more excited about the concept of SQLite
> having a Code of Conduct until I actually read it. Regardless of the fact
> that I seem to fail a great many of its provisions, it seems fairly deaf—if
> not antagonistic—to the issues of our times that have created demand for
> such documents.
>
> Scott
>
> On Oct 19, 2018, at 7:11 AM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 10/19/18, Mantas Gridinas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> >> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> >> 2018-02-22.
> >>
> >
> > Yes.  Clients were encouraging me to have a code of conduct.  (Having
> > a CoC seems to be a trendy thing nowadays.)  So I looked around and
> > came up with what you found, submitted the idea to the whole staff,
> > and everybody approved.
> >
> > --
> > D. Richard Hipp
> > [hidden email]
> > _______________________________________________
> > sqlite-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Petite Abeille-2


> On Oct 19, 2018, at 11:05 PM, Wout Mertens <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  I can live with that.

Yes, let’s get along for once.

In the memorable words of President Dale:

"Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little forum people, why can't we all just get along?”
Mars Attacks! (1996)

_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

wmertens
In reply to this post by Roger Schlueter
On Oct 19, 2018 11:00 PM, "Roger Schlueter" <[hidden email]> wrote:

There's no atheists/freethinkers at SQLite?


There's at least one (me), but they can simply ignore all the God-related
rules, easy.

It gets a bit harder for Hindus though, they have to mentally add "(your
favorite for this use case)" in front of every mention of God.

If the second half of 54 is observed, it would be a dreary world indeed.


Hmm yes, I did not take any of the asceticism rules seriously. I am and
will continue to be in frequent non-compliance of them.

Wout.
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Rowan Worth-2
In reply to this post by Mantas Gridinas
On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 19:52, Mantas Gridinas <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I found code of conduct in documentation and I was wondering if it were
> true. Checking the version history it appears to have been added on
> 2018-02-22.
>

> 23. Do not nurse a grudge.

::sigh::
DROP TABLE grudges;

I was amassing such a good collection :(
-Rowan
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Richard Hipp-3
In reply to this post by Simon Slavin-3
On 10/19/18, Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For
> those curious ...
>

Looks like that happened this morning.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Mantas Gridinas
To be fair, internet is considered to be series of reposts.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 15:20 Richard Hipp <[hidden email] wrote:

> On 10/19/18, Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, that's gonna magically appear on Hacker News within the month.  For
> > those curious ...
> >
>
> Looks like that happened this morning.
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Chris Brody
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
> Looks like that happened this morning.
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Richard Hipp-3
On 10/22/18, Chris Brody <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Looks like that happened this morning.
>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
>
> I saw it coming, tried to warn you guys in private.

There is indeed a reactionary hate mob forming on twitter.  But most
of the thoughtful commentators have been supportive, even if they
disagree with the particulars of our CoC, They total get that we are
not being exclusive, but rather setting a standard of behavior for
participation in the SQLite community.

I have tried to make that point clear in the preface to the CoC, that
we have no intention of enforcing any particular religious system on
anybody, and that everyone is welcomed to participate in the community
regardless of ones religious proclivities.  The only requirement is
that while participating in the SQLite community, your behavior not be
in direct conflict with time-tested and centuries-old Christian
ethics.  Nobody has to adhere to a particular creed.  Merely
demonstrate professional behavior and all is well.

Many detractors appear to have not read the preface, or if they read
it, they did not understand it.  This might be because I have not
explained it well.  The preface has been revised, months ago, to
address prior criticism from the twitter crowd.  I think the current
preface is definitely an improvement over what was up at first.  But,
there might be ways of improving it further.  Thoughtful suggestions
are welcomed.

So the question then arises:  If strict adherence to the Rule of St.
Benedict is not required, why even have a CoC?

Several reasons:  First, "professional behavior" is ill-defined.  What
is professional to some might be unprofessional to others.  The Rule
attempts to clarify what "professional behavior" means.  When I was
first trying to figure out what CoC to use (under pressure from
clients) I also considered secular sources, such as Benjamin
Franklin's 13 virtues (http://www.thirteenvirtues.com/) but ended up
going with the Instruments of Good Works from St. Benedict's Rule as
it provide more examples.

Secondly, I view a CoC not so much as a legal code as a statement of
the values of the core developers.  All current committers to SQLite
approved the CoC before I published it.  A single dissent would have
been sufficient for me to change course.  Taking down the current CoC
would not change our values, it would merely obscure them.  Isn't it
better to be open and honest about who we are?

Thirdly, having a written CoC is increasingly a business requirement.
(I published the currrent CoC after two separate business requested
copies of our company CoC.  They did not say this was a precondition
for doing business with them, but there was that implication.) There
has been an implicit code of conduct for SQLite from the beginning,
and almost everybody has gotten along with it just fine.  Once or
twice I have had to privately reprove offenders, but those are rare
exceptions.  Publishing the current CoC back in February is merely
making explicit what has been implicit from the beginning.  Nothing
has really changed.  I did not draw attention to the CoC back in
February because all I really needed then was a hyperlink to send to
those who were specifically curious.

So then, why not use a more modern CoC?  I looked at that too, but
found the so-called "modern" CoCs to be vapid.  They are trendy
feel-good statements that do not really get to the heart of the matter
in the way the the ancient Rule does.  By way of analogy, I view
modern CoCs as being like pop music - selling millions of copies today
and completely forgotten next year.  I prefer something more enduring,
like Mozart.

One final reason for publishing the current CoC is as a preemptive
move, to prevent some future customer from imposing on us one of those
modern CoCs that I so dislike.

In summary: The values expressed by the current CoC have been
unchanged for decades and will not be changing as we move forward.  If
some people are uncomfortable with those values, then I am very sorry
for them, but that does not change the fact.  On the other hand, I am
open to suggestions on how to express those values in a way that
modern twitter-ites can better understand, so do not hesitate to speak
up if you have a plan.
--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Simon Slavin-3
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On 22 Oct 2018, at 1:19pm, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Looks like that happened this morning.
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530

It also hit Reddit, in /r/programming.  Currently 239 comments:

<https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9qedai/sqlite_adopts_new_code_of_conduct/>

Simon.


_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Chris Brody
I would vote for a major simplification, down to something like "love
thy neighbor", "do unto others as ...", or "don't do unto others as
..."

For reference:
* https://www.simpletoremember.com/jewish/blog/loving-thy-neighbor-judaism/
* https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5%3A14&version=KJV
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 12:26 PM Simon Slavin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 22 Oct 2018, at 1:19pm, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Looks like that happened this morning.
> > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18273530
>
> It also hit Reddit, in /r/programming.  Currently 239 comments:
>
> <https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9qedai/sqlite_adopts_new_code_of_conduct/>
>
> Simon.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Simon Slavin-3
On 22 Oct 2018, at 5:32pm, someone wrote:

> I would vote for a major simplification

There's no point.  The point of the code a posted is that it is a direct copy of the code of St. Benedict, the rules (allowing for translation from the Latin) which have been accepted by Benedictine monks for 1300 years.  In that time the rules were debated, by people of all religions and none, far more cleverly and amusingly than I've seen in the past week on the internet.

If you're not going to accept those rules, in exactly the translation used, you might as well pick something entirely different.

Simon.
_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Regarding CoC

Petite Abeille-2
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3


> On Oct 22, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> In summary

Leave it as it is, no one is going to loose sleep over it. Now, about that MERGE command... :)

_______________________________________________
sqlite-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
1234