"Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

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"Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Richard Hipp-3
Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
(http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
information content available to desktop users.

--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Darren Duncan
On 2016-09-05 1:55 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

> Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> information content available to desktop users.

Superficially the altered site looks like an improvement.  It uses the simple
and standard "viewport" declaration to achieve the low-hanging fruit.  Text is
readable on my phone as with my computer at its default size while loading.
Site still seems navigatable.  I didn't go very far though. -- Darren Duncan

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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Scott Doctor
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
For my current website, I tested various techniques so that my
website renders properly on a phone and a large desktop monitor.
Most smart phones have a landscape resolution of at least 1024
pixels, most newer phones are much higher. I found that 950
pixel fixed centered width for a website page works on
everything. A phone turned landscape can read 12 point common
fonts at full width zoom. I find that using a fixed width
instead of an adaptive width is better for phones. Especially
when viewing the same website on a large desktop monitor. With
the context centered, the website is not too wide which can be
hard to read on a large screen, but fits onto a phone screen nicely.

Another thing I found about phones with using fixed pages and
fixed width text boxes versus dynamic width pages. Tapping the
text zooms to the width of a text box. Tapping on a dynamic
width box had mixed results as the phone operating system has to
guess a zoom factor, which often resulted in over zooming
requiring horizontal scrolling to read.

I split the screen into vertical fourths. Navigation, notes, and
such in the left quadrant, text boxes and other content in the
other three quadrants. Following more along the lines of the
current style of the sqlite website, the right most quadrant
column for stuff such as the common links box with the page
content in the first 3 quadrant columns. I think a fixed width
instead of dynamic width works better with phones and other
small devices.

Newspapers use 4-6 columns on a page instead of stretching a
line all the way across the page. It is easier for the eyes to
track from line to line. I find wide width of the sqlite pages
hard to read on my desktop monitors. Although I can shrink the
width of the browser, I am usually working on other things when
opening the page which need wider widths of the browser.

People who mostly use phones for browsing the web are not using
devices with a paltry 320x480 screen. scaling for a 950 width
would work better.

Fixed width content boxes seem to work better for phones as it
gives better clues to the phone how to zoom. Tapping any text
box will zoom to the width of that text box. Dynamic width boxes
do not have those kind of clues. I laid out my entire website
using the four quadrant vertical columns and fixed width text
boxes, which seems to work well on various phones I tried, along
with large desktop monitors. You can see how it works here>

https://nousrandom.net/index.html

-------------------------
Scott Doctor
[hidden email]
-------------------------

On 9/5/2016 13:55, Richard Hipp wrote:

> Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> information content available to desktop users.
>

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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Delvin
In reply to this post by Darren Duncan
The site seems to be quite readable - I did notice that the text appears larger in landscape mode but it seems to appear quite readable in portrait mode (I viewed it with an iPhone 4S and an iPod Touch.

-----Original Message-----
From: sqlite-users [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Darren Duncan
Sent: Monday, 5 September, 2016 16:28
To: SQLite mailing list <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

On 2016-09-05 1:55 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:

> Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> information content available to desktop users.

Superficially the altered site looks like an improvement.  It uses the simple and standard "viewport" declaration to achieve the low-hanging fruit.  Text is readable on my phone as with my computer at its default size while loading.
Site still seems navigatable.  I didn't go very far though. -- Darren Duncan

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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Donald Griggs
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
At first blush, looks good on my Zenfone 2 under android 5.0 with chrome
and on laptop with Windoze 10 and chrome.

In the interest of "dotting all the i's" I noted a misspelling in the
initial sentence:
     "SQLite is a high-reliablity,"
for reliability.
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Stephen Chrzanowski
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
I have my ancient Galaxy S (Original
<http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i9000_galaxy_s-3115.php>) Android hanging
here on my desk, and I pulled up the draft page, and it looks good.

With respect, Dr. Hipp, I really do hope you weren't REALLY pressured into
this (And the analogy between the soda-straw compared against my desktops
5-monitor setup is the absolute truth), and this is just more of a side
project or an itch to scratch to give the site a refresh.  If so, good
work, for the *MANY* people who use sqlite.org as a reference point, and I
guess it'll be worth while for the 5 people who use their phones to look up
information rather than use a desktop computer they do their development
on. ;)

On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> information content available to desktop users.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> [hidden email]
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Chris Locke
In reply to this post by Delvin
When reducing the size of the browser (on Chrome desktop at least) the '***
DRAFT ***' tag disappears.  Rather than disappears, maybe this should be
reduced in size and always be visible?
Edit: Noticed its right at the bottom of the page, regardless of size, but
not at the top.  Is this by design?
Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.


Thanks,
Chris


On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Delvin <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> The site seems to be quite readable - I did notice that the text appears
> larger in landscape mode but it seems to appear quite readable in portrait
> mode (I viewed it with an iPhone 4S and an iPod Touch.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sqlite-users [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Darren Duncan
> Sent: Monday, 5 September, 2016 16:28
> To: SQLite mailing list <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org
>
> On 2016-09-05 1:55 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:
> > Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> > and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> > reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> > view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> > to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> > (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> > appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> > narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> > to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> > information content available to desktop users.
>
> Superficially the altered site looks like an improvement.  It uses the
> simple and standard "viewport" declaration to achieve the low-hanging
> fruit.  Text is readable on my phone as with my computer at its default
> size while loading.
> Site still seems navigatable.  I didn't go very far though. -- Darren
> Duncan
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Eric Grange-3
In reply to this post by Stephen Chrzanowski
Seems to be fine from here, and probably not too critical, as not all
websites have a purpose on mobile devices.

However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.

For instance right now you have something like
   http://imgur.com/a/nRfno
IMHO it would be more readable as
   http://imgur.com/a/EkKZA

Above I just added "max-width:1100px" and "margin:auto" to the body style.

And for those that do not like the extra white, it can be skinned to gray
as in http://imgur.com/a/1tRMR with just the following CSS (and hopefully
there are some that could contribute even better skins)

html {
    background: #eee;
}
body {
    background: #fff;
    padding: 0 2em;
    box-shadow: 0 0 .3em #888;
    margin-top: .5em;
}

Eric

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:32 AM, Stephen Chrzanowski <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I have my ancient Galaxy S (Original
> <http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i9000_galaxy_s-3115.php>) Android hanging
> here on my desk, and I pulled up the draft page, and it looks good.
>
> With respect, Dr. Hipp, I really do hope you weren't REALLY pressured into
> this (And the analogy between the soda-straw compared against my desktops
> 5-monitor setup is the absolute truth), and this is just more of a side
> project or an itch to scratch to give the site a refresh.  If so, good
> work, for the *MANY* people who use sqlite.org as a reference point, and I
> guess it'll be worth while for the 5 people who use their phones to look up
> information rather than use a desktop computer they do their development
> on. ;)
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Most of the world views the internet on their phone now, I am told,
> > and websites are suppose to be "responsive", meaning that they
> > reformat themselves to be attractive and useful for the majority who
> > view them through a 320x480 pixel soda-straw.  In an effort to conform
> > to this trend, I have made some changes to the *draft* SQLite website
> > (http://sqlite.org/draft) Your feedback on these changes is
> > appreciated.  Please be sure to try out the new design both on a
> > narrow-screen phone and on a traditional desktop browser.  The goal is
> > to provide a more mobile-friendly website without reducing the
> > information content available to desktop users.
> >
> > --
> > D. Richard Hipp
> > [hidden email]
> > _______________________________________________
> > sqlite-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
> >
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Stephan Beal-3
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Eric Grange <[hidden email]> wrote:

> However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
> from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
> for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
> of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
>

A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.

--
----- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Eric Grange-3
> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.

Just to clarify, this is not fixed width, but limited max width, ie. it
only kicks in when the browser window is very large. The site is fluid
(like now) at smaller widths.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Stephan Beal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Eric Grange <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
> > from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
> > for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
> > of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
> >
>
> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.
>
> --
> ----- stephan beal
> http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
> "Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
> those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby
> Wolf
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Stephan Beal-3
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Eric Grange <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> > despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.
>
> Just to clarify, this is not fixed width, but limited max width, ie. it
> only kicks in when the browser window is very large. The site is fluid
> (like now) at smaller widths.
>

And i mis-typed :/. i _despise_ both fixed widths and designer-specified
maximum widths ;). No designer on this planet knows what my screen
resolution/viewing preferences are and has no business assuming they do.
It's likely that assumption about my preferences/limits which annoys me
more than the limitation itself does.

--
----- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Olivier Mascia
In reply to this post by Stephan Beal-3
> Le 6 sept. 2016 à 10:19, Stephan Beal <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>> However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
>> from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
>> for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
>> of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
>>
>
> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.

Along a similar line, I tend to never use my browsers full screen or full width on desktops but adjust the window size to whatever suits me for comfort of reading. I'm not sure — but I'm rather from old school surely — that it is in the hyper-text original concepts to impose a reading width on me.  In my book, the purpose of a technical hyper-text as sqlite.org is to provide content, and leave the overall formatting of this the viewer (the user and his/her browser).

I welcome the changes made on the draft site, because things set to display sideways on larger displays are configured to display in-line (like menus of shortcuts) when using a (much) smaller screen.  That is positive.  As well reducing the margins on text on those small displays is just fine. Going farther by imposing a maximum line width on larger displays, especially if expressing this using such a weird unit as pixels, doesn't feel right for sqlite.org content.

I wouldn't say the same for the a marketing website, heavily built of highly graphical content.

--
Meilleures salutations, Met vriendelijke groeten, Best Regards,
Olivier Mascia, integral.be/om


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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

R Smith
In reply to this post by Stephan Beal-3


On 2016/09/06 10:19 AM, Stephan Beal wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Eric Grange <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
>> from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
>> for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
>> of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
>>
> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.
>

I'm afraid I'm with Mr. Beal on this - Windows (for all its faults) lets
me drag the size of a window (including browser windows) to whatever I
like them to be. It feels extremely presumptuous of a web-site (or its
designer) to decide that I am incapable of picking a size that "reads
well". I think the convention has merit for people who simply clicks the
little "Maximize" button and then expects to see content that is easy to
read. That's laziness in my opinion, but I'm not judging, just don't
want them to decide my read-width.

Catering for user who don't know how to use computers is a bit of an
Apple thing (and sadly lately a bit of a Windows thing too), luckily
Linux still thinks I am the boss. I don't mind that these conventions
exist to help those folks, I just wish I had the choice... always.

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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Eric Grange-3
Well, I guess I am in the minority using a tabbed browser then :)

In tabbed browsers, all browser tabs share the same window width, and it is
quite impractical to resize the browser every time you switch a tab.

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 11:06 AM, R Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 2016/09/06 10:19 AM, Stephan Beal wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Eric Grange <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> However, while you are at it, an improvement for the website when browsed
>>> from a computer would be to limit the max width of the pages, especially
>>> for the documentation pages. Currently if you have a big screen the lines
>>> of text stretch to the whole browser width, which is not very readable.
>>>
>>> A counter-opinion, though apparently in the small minority: i _absolutely
>> despise_ fixed-width web site layouts.
>>
>>
> I'm afraid I'm with Mr. Beal on this - Windows (for all its faults) lets
> me drag the size of a window (including browser windows) to whatever I like
> them to be. It feels extremely presumptuous of a web-site (or its designer)
> to decide that I am incapable of picking a size that "reads well". I think
> the convention has merit for people who simply clicks the little "Maximize"
> button and then expects to see content that is easy to read. That's
> laziness in my opinion, but I'm not judging, just don't want them to decide
> my read-width.
>
> Catering for user who don't know how to use computers is a bit of an Apple
> thing (and sadly lately a bit of a Windows thing too), luckily Linux still
> thinks I am the boss. I don't mind that these conventions exist to help
> those folks, I just wish I had the choice... always.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mailinglists.sqlite.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users
>
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Tim Streater-3
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
On 06 Sep 2016 at 11:02, Eric Grange <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Well, I guess I am in the minority using a tabbed browser then :)
>
> In tabbed browsers, all browser tabs share the same window width, and it is
> quite impractical to resize the browser every time you switch a tab.

Yes, I do the same. I have three Safari windows open, typically, each with several tabs. One for general browsing (BBC News, Twitter, etc), and each of the others is project specific with some number of tabs open. And I use a cheap clamshell mobile phone which is normally switched off, so the issue being debated doesn't really affect me except to the extent that I wouldn't want the SQLite site to look worse on a desktop.

Is there a reason why some of the links on the front page of the draft site have been styled to look like buttons? A button, IMO, should do something, not take you somewhere.

--
Cheers  --  Tim
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Richard Hipp-3
In reply to this post by Chris Locke
On 9/6/16, Chris Locke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> When reducing the size of the browser (on Chrome desktop at least) the '***
> DRAFT ***' tag disappears.  Rather than disappears, maybe this should be
> reduced in size and always be visible?
> Edit: Noticed its right at the bottom of the page, regardless of size, but
> not at the top.  Is this by design?

By design.  There simply is not space.

Note that when not in draft mode, the "*** DRAFT ***" text becomes the
tag-line:  "Small. Fast. Reliable.  Choose any three!"  There is no
way to fit that on a 320-pixel wide screen, together with the logo,
and make it readable.  It is not essential information so it is
elided.

> Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.
>

By design.  There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a
mobile device.  So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save
precious pixels.

--
D. Richard Hipp
[hidden email]
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Nelson, Erik - 2
Richard Hipp wrote on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 7:26 AM

>There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a mobile device.
>So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save precious pixels.

What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?  I agree there's nothing of use to a mobile device on the download page, and it seems like mobile devices (at least ones with small screens) are not well suited to reading technical documentation, no matter how 'responsive'.

Erik

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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

OBones
In reply to this post by Richard Hipp-3
Richard Hipp wrote:
> On 9/6/16, Chris Locke <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Additionally, on the menu, the 'Download' option is not visible at all.
>>
> By design.  There is nothing on the Download page that is useful to a
> mobile device.  So links to that page are omitted on mobile, to save
> precious pixels.
>
Unless you use the mobile phone to download the package and then as usb
key to place it on the final device.
And no, using the modem mode is not always feasible on those devices.

That's why I hate it when I have to use the "view as on a computer" mode
in the Firefox mobile browser because the designer thought that I don't
need something while I'm on my phone...
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Richard Hipp-3
In reply to this post by Nelson, Erik - 2
On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?

How do I tell?

The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW).  How do I tell which of those
are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?

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D. Richard Hipp
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Re: "Responsive" website revamp at www.sqlite.org

Stephan Beal-3
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Richard Hipp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9/6/16, Nelson, Erik - 2 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > What percentage of sqlite.org hits are mobile browsers?
>
> How do I tell?
>
> The website saw 2748 distinct UserAgent strings within just the past
> 24 hours (a holiday in the USA, FWIW).  How do I tell which of those
> are bots, mobile devices, and/or desktops?
>
>
Two projects i've worked on the past few years have tasked me with figuring
that out. The answer is, unfortunately, that it cannot be done anywhere
near reliably. They are free-form strings, often intentionally obfuscated
(MSIE does this now, we recently discovered, presumably to try to keep
people from implementing IE-specific workarounds).

--
----- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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